Mussina does not make my HOF ballot

[Can_of_corn]

Throwing 7 requires a unique skill set though.

Incredible longevity + high K rate.

[DrungoHazewood]

Huh??? Are you trying to say that few hof pitchers have ever thrown a no hitter? If not what are you saying?

Ubaldo has as many no-hitters as Jim Palmer.

Roughly 46 of the 287 no-hitters have been thrown by Hall of Famers, but 16 were thrown by Ryan, Koufax, Mathewson, Spahn. That means that roughly 30 HOF pitchers out of 71 have thrown no-hitters. That's 60% of Hall of Fame pitchers who didn't throw a no-hitter, give or take.

[Old#5fan]

Didn't we already establish that you do not have to be a great pitcher to throw a no hitter?[/quote/]. Now that is just an absurd attempt at circular logic as you well know! If high number of innings automatically equate to more no hitters how come Jamey Moyer and Jim Kaat didn't throw a bunch of them? What nonsense !!!

[Palmoripken]

Throwing 7 requires a unique skill set though.

Certainly. Anyhow, I think I look at it like this. A no hitter/perfect game is a great individual accomplishment but a pitcher having one and another having zero shouldn't be a demerit against the latter if he otherwise pitched very consistently. As I got at, Greg Maddux is considered by many to be Nolan Ryan's superior as a pitcher and Maddux never had one. Of the 28 pitches who have thrown perfect games, only 5: Addie Joss, Cy Young, Jim Bunning, Catfish Hunter, and Sandy Koufax are HoFers. You know the closest I can remember an Oriole pitcher coming to a no hitter since the 1991 combined effort was Daniel Cabrera and no one's calling him a great pitcher. A lot of great pitchers have thrown no hitters but a lot of great ones have not. Now that said I really want to see one. Came so close when Moose nearly got the perfecto back in '97 which was very exciting to watch.

[Palmoripken]

Ubaldo has as many no-hitters as Jim Palmer.

Roughly 46 of the 287 no-hitters have been thrown by Hall of Famers, but 16 were thrown by Ryan, Koufax, Mathewson, Spahn. That means that roughly 30 HOF pitchers out of 71 have thrown no-hitters. That's 60% of Hall of Fame pitchers who didn't throw a no-hitter, give or take.

Charlie Robertson has as many perfect games as Sandy Koufax. It's a nice individual accomplishment but all it really tells you about is how a guy was on for a certain day and also how his defense was. Hell we all know the Dock Ellis story which I am glad to report turns out does have footage(new Dock Ellis documentary that I saw on Showtime on demand last week). Lots of great pitchers throw no hitters but lots of not so great pitchers throw them too.

[OFFNY]

Charlie Robertson has as many perfect games as Sandy Koufax. It's a nice individual accomplishment but all it really tells you about is how a guy was on for a certain day and also how his defense was. Hell, we all know the Dock Ellis story which I am glad to report turns out does have footage(new Dock Ellis documentary that I saw on Showtime on demand last week). Lots of great pitchers throw no hitters but lots of not so great pitchers throw them too.

We also have a thread on it from the summer, with an accompanying article:

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php/141717-The-Long-Strange-Trip-of-Dock-Ellis-%28Outside-the-Lines%29?highlight=Dock+Ellis

o

The Long, Strange Trip of Dock Ellis

(by Patrick Hruby)

Meet the man behind baseball's most psychedelic myth.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=Dock-Ellis

It's a great read.

I'll bump it, and it would be greatly appreciated if you would comment on what you saw on the Showtime special.

Patrick

[Palmoripken]

We also have a thread on it from the summer, with an accompanying article:

o

The Long, Strange Trip of Dock Ellis

(by Patrick Hruby)

Meet the man behind baseball's most psychedelic myth.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=Dock-Ellis

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php/141717-The-Long-Strange-Trip-of-Dock-Ellis-%28Outside-the-Lines%29?highlight=Dock+Ellis

It's a great read.

I'll bump it, and it would be greatly appreciated if you would comment on what you saw on the Showtime special.

Patrick

Sure thing. I missed your thread from this summer. Must have debuted while I was out of country.

[Old#5fan]

Ubaldo has as many no-hitters as Jim Palmer.

Roughly 46 of the 287 no-hitters have been thrown by Hall of Famers, but 16 were thrown by Ryan, Koufax, Mathewson, Spahn. That means that roughly 30 HOF pitchers out of 71 have thrown no-hitters. That's 60% of Hall of Fame pitchers who didn't throw a no-hitter, give or take.

Yeah well that is one way to view those stats but that is a vastly high % of HOF pitchers (40%) vrs non-HOF pitchers (my guess would be 1% or less of major league pitchers who have thrown a no hitter at the major league level.

[DrungoHazewood]

Charlie Robertson has as many perfect games as Sandy Koufax. It's a nice individual accomplishment but all it really tells you about is how a guy was on for a certain day and also how his defense was. Hell we all know the Dock Ellis story which I am glad to report turns out does have footage(new Dock Ellis documentary that I saw on Showtime on demand last week). Lots of great pitchers throw no hitters but lots of not so great pitchers throw them too.

Bobo Holloman has a no-hitter and outside of that start he threw 56.1 innings of a 6.07.

[DrungoHazewood]

Yeah well that is one way to view those stats but that is a vastly high % of HOF pitchers (40%) vrs non-HOF pitchers (my guess would be 1% or less of major league pitchers who have thrown a no hitter at the major league level.

I'd guess that very good pitchers do throw more no-hitters than bad pitchers. But most very good pitchers don't throw one. You simply can't use one game as a measure of greatness unless you've narrowed your focus so far as to be nearly meaningless. Don Larsen is a good example - a relatively poor Major League pitcher, with 1-10 and 3-21 seasons on his record. But, of course, a very famous no hitter.

[LoyalBirdFan]

And some good pitchers thru a lot of 1 and 2 hitters. I'm not sure a no hitter (or lack of) is an indication of anything.

I think Ryan started close to 800 games and some batters started their swing when Nolan nodded his head to the catcher. His 7 is very impressive.

[Palmoripken]

Bobo Holloman has a no-hitter and outside of that start he threw 56.1 innings of a 6.07.

Yep. Plenty of cases like that. It's not that throwing a no hitter is being scoffed at. It's just that it's silly to use to view a pitcher's entire skill set and career resume. It's like saying Cy Young is the best pitcher ever because he has the most wins.

[Palmoripken]

And some good pitchers thru a lot of 1 and 2 hitters. I'm not sure a no hitter (or lack of) is an indication of anything.

I think Ryan started close to 800 games and some batters started their swing when Nolan nodded his head to the catcher. His 7 is very impressive.

Incredibly long career. He was the last player born in the 40's I believe to retire I believe and he was born in '47.

[Old#5fan]

I'd guess that very good pitchers do throw more no-hitters than bad pitchers. But most very good pitchers don't throw one. You simply can't use one game as a measure of greatness unless you've narrowed your focus so far as to be nearly meaningless. Don Larsen is a good example - a relatively poor Major League pitcher, with 1-10 and 3-21 seasons on his record. But, of course, a very famous no hitter.

You don't need to guess in your first statement. You own stats proved it already! 40% of HOF pitchers have thrown no hitters. That means that likely less than one percent of all major league pitchers throughout major league history have hurled a major league no hitter as there have only been 287 thrown!

Of course not all no hitters have been thrown by great pitchers. That is beyond ridiculous to think that I or anyone else would believe otherwise. The whol point that you seem to me missing here is WAAAY more HOF pitchers (% wise) have thrown them.

[OFFNY]

Charlie Robertson has as many perfect games as Sandy Koufax. It's a nice individual accomplishment but all it really tells you about is how a guy was on for a certain day and also how his defense was. Hell we all know the Dock Ellis story which I am glad to report turns out does have footage(new Dock Ellis documentary that I saw on Showtime on demand last week). Lots of great pitchers throw no hitters but lots of not so great pitchers throw them too.

Bobo Holloman has a no-hitter and outside of that start he threw 56.1 innings of a 6.07.

While we're on the subject ......

This is a strange, but true story:

9 years before Don Larsen threw his perfect game in the World Series, Bill Bevens threw 8.67 innings of no-hit ball in Game Four of the 1947 World Series. He was ONE OUT away from immortality. Bevens walked two batters (one of them intentionally.) Veteren Cookie Lavagetto entered the game as a pinch-hitter. Lavagetto hit a double, scoring both runners, and winning the contest for the Dodgers by a score of 3-2 with their only hit of the game.

Bevens never played another game in the majors again, and it was Lavagetto's last hit of his career, as the Dodgers released him the following March, and he retired.