For What it's worth.....

[blueberryale77]

I agree with this post. I don't think Peralta would be in any Indians offer. He is their 3B of the future, IMO. I'm guessing if Cleveland has made an offer it would be something like Miller, Barfield and Gutierrez.

Good. I like that offer better anyway although I'd probably want to swap Gutierrez out for a younger, rougher but higher upside prospect if possible. Peralta will be a 3B in the future, but his bat will be average at best for the position.

[davearm]

Tough to eat innings when you are taken out by the 4th inning.

5.12 is the best K rate he has had since 2004....That is a terrible rate.

His BB rate isn't that good.

His HR rate has been well above 1 the last several years.

His command rate is usually below 1.5.

His career ERA is 4.56..playing in the NL.

His BABIP has been in the average range, so he isn't get helped or hurt there.

His FIP ERA for his career is over 5.

Nothing about his game says he will be good over here.

I would rather have Trachsel for this year than Marquis for 2 years.

I wasn't proposing Trachsel for Marquis.

If you read what I wrote, you'd know I was proposing two guys that cost the same money but will do even less good for the O's for the next two years than Marquis.

Look all those stats are nice, but all you really need to know is that Marquis is a sinkerballer that pitches to contact. He'll be effective in either the AL or the NL if he's keeping the ball down and getting his good sinking action on the ball; if he's leaving the ball up and flattening it out, he's gonna get hammered in either league. History shows you should expect some of both over the course of 30+ starts.

[davearm]

Baez has 0% chance of pitching in 2008. He doesnt seem as motivated as Ray to return and is having a few setbacks. Really, Baez could sit on the 60 Day DL collecting insurance money, but it would still be nice for the Orioles to remove him from the picture for 2009.

Fair enough. I haven't followed the Baez rehab situation one bit.

[Pre-Highlanders]

Why Marte? Because he used to have upside? I'm sure we could resign Craig Worthington cheaper.

[Sports Guy]

I wasn't proposing Trachsel for Marquis.

If you read what I wrote, you'd know I was proposing two guys that cost the same money but will do even less good for the O's for the next two years than Marquis.

Look all those stats are nice, but all you really need to know is that Marquis is a sinkerballer that pitches to contact. He'll be effective in either the AL or the NL if he's keeping the ball down and getting his good sinking action on the ball; if he's leaving the ball up and flattening it out, he's gonna get hammered in either league. History shows you should expect some of both over the course of 30+ starts.

Expecting below a 5 ERA for Marquis in the AL and in OPACY is expecting too much.

The guy just isn't good...Now, i would deal baez and Payton for him but the Cubs aren't doing that.

He has no value in a BRob deal unless it means we are getting back Pie as well as the other named players.

Other than that, taking his contract on is a joke...Baez, Mora or Gibbons, along with Payton, must be going back to the Cubs for it make any other sense for us.

[Ruzious]

His rookie year he hit .280 with 13 HR's and 58 RBI's and posted a line of .318/.423/.741. Not bad for a rookie. He took a step back last year and that's why is value is so low right now. He had a career MiL OPS of .796. He's still only 25. I would much rather have him than Cedeno/EPat.

To paraphrase Neil Armstrong, "The .741 was a step forward. The .594 OPS was one giant leap backwards into a ditch."

[davearm]

Assuming for a moment that Cleveland is even in this in the first place...

What if they are taking a similar stance as the Cubs, making many of their most appealing names offlimits, leaving available just the Martes and the Barfields and the Cliff Lees of their organization?

Not too hard to see the Indians wanting to hold onto Peralta (move him to 3B soon), Miller (need a potential ace with Sabathia likely to leave), Lofgren (a young cheap lefty with upside is hard to part with) and so on.

[Cubsfan]

Roberts' salary has nothing to do with the salary dumps. The Cubs obviously want him enough to put together a package of young, cheap prospects to take on him and his salary.

IMO the O's tried to make Payton part of the deal because the Cubs offer wasn't quite enough and they needed something to even it out plus Payton at least superficially fits the Cubs need for a right handed 4th OF who can play center. It's not taking a deal that would have been acceptable and saying "how about you take Jay Payton too," it's saying, "your offer isn't quite enough but we have some salary to dump and you need a backup CF, maybe this could be a win-win."

With Payton, you're talking about one year and $5 million, and he would fill a need the Cubs have (although not necessarily all that well). He might actually make a little bit of sense for the Cubs as a throw-in and the O's would benefit from having him gone.

Marquis is a completely different story. Even if MacPhail seems to be in love with the idea of acquiring veteran starters with clubhouse issues to fill out the rotation instead of giving the kids he needs to build around a chance to prove themselves, the fans want to see young guys with potential, not overpaid middle-aged guys with bad attitudes. To us, taking on a guy like Marquis would just be a sign of lack of commitment to rebuilding our team from the bottom up.

I think you're kidding yourself about Payton being added as a plus for the Cubs. Payton being added is purely a salary dump and should be considered a negative instead of a positive from the Cubs' side. Taking Payton would be considered the cost of getting Roberts in the deal.

As you stated, McPhail seems to be committed to adding another veteran starter, so the discussion about Marquis started. What the fans (in any town) want doesn't really matter if the GM thinks that he needs to go in a different direction. If McPhail wants a veteran starter who will eat innings, then Marquis has as much value to the O's as Payton does to the Cubs. The bottom line is that Payton and Marquis are both under-performing, overpaid players with clubhouse issues. Unless either (or both) are traded for a similar contract, they will be considered salary dumps.

[Sports Guy]

Why Marte? Because he used to have upside? I'm sure we could resign Craig Worthington cheaper.

He still has upside...He could be the next Brandon Phillips.

He is still young...Would love to take a chance on guys like him..>Same with Barfield.

[Sports Guy]

Assuming for a moment that Cleveland is even in this in the first place...

What if they are taking a similar stance as the Cubs, making many of their most appealing names offlimits, leaving available just the Martes and the Barfields and the Cliff Lees of their organization?

Not too hard to see the Indians wanting to hold onto Peralta (move him to 3B soon), Miller (need a potential ace with Sabathia likely to leave), Lofgren (a young cheap lefty with upside is hard to part with) and so on.

I would much rather have Marte and Barfield than Cedeno, EPat and Murton.

I think we could probably work out a seperate deal for Cedeno or another young SS.

[davearm]

He still has upside...He could be the next Brandon Phillips.

He is still young...Would love to take a chance on guys like him..>Same with Barfield.

Imagine Marte + Barfield + Cliff Lee for Roberts is the Indians' final offer.

Take it or leave it?

[Sports Guy]

I think you're kidding yourself about Payton being added as a plus for the Cubs. Payton being added is purely a salary dump and should be considered a negative instead of a positive from the Cubs' side. Taking Payton would be considered the cost of getting Roberts in the deal.As you stated, McPhail seems to be committed to adding another veteran starter, so the discussion about Marquis started. What the fans (in any town) want doesn't really matter if the GM thinks that he needs to go in a different direction. If McPhail wants a veteran starter who will eat innings, then Marquis has as much value to the O's as Payton does to the Cubs. The bottom line is that Payton and Marquis are both under-performing, overpaid players with clubhouse issues. Unless either (or both) are traded for a similar contract, they will be considered salary dumps.

Despite what you think, Payton has value to a contending team, especially an NL team.

He still hits lefties well and can play all 3 OF psoitions. Considering Pie can't hit lefties, he could be valuable to the Cubs.

Now, i agree we should pay some of his contract but Payton for 2 million or so is a good thing for the Cubs....He just has to be used properly, ie against lefties.

[Sports Guy]

Imagine Marte + Barfield + Cliff Lee for Roberts is the Indians' final offer.

Take it or leave it?

Is there an offer on the table from the Cubs to consider in this as well??

And is Lee healthy now?

[ChaosLex]

I agree there's room for Peralta but Marte has failed to live up to any expectation, and I'm not sure who's high on Barfield. I earlier posted BP's take on the both of them. Here it is:

Josh Barfield 25

...Barfield never got his bat going and was usurped by Asdrubal Cabrera, who now seems to be the better answer at 2B in the minds of Cleveland officials. That puts Barfield in limbo, as there is little room on a major league bench for an infielder who can't play on the left side. ....if Cleveland deals him now, they'l be selling low.

Andy Marte 24

Oh, how the mighty have fallen. ....As it turns out, he just isn't that good. Since coming to Cleveland, he's gotten a little bit bigger, a little bit stiffer, and a whole lot worse.

I understand what you're saying, but I want positional talent back in a Roberts trade. Cedeno and/or Epatt isn't going to cut it for me.

[Ruzious]

He still has upside...He could be the next Brandon Phillips.

He is still young...Would love to take a chance on guys like him..>Same with Barfield.

I concur, but it doesn't mean Barfield or Marte have much trade value. There wasn't much - if any - market for Phillips when Cincy got him - for a PTBNL.