The New Cavalry?

[LA2]

10 hours ago, glenn__davis said:

Yeah, injuries derailed Loewen as well.

As you mentioned, the expectations on our end as fans were just unreasonable.  That why depth is so important, because the odds are that most of these guys aren't going to work out.  It's also why I'm really following Means closely, because if he turns into even a back-end rotation starter that's a huge development.  You need some of these "out-of-nowhere" guys as well.

Yet another dismal story--so much was expected of him! Derailed so much that he tried hard to pull off a Rick Ankiel and become a position player, failed, and then returned to pitching. Six seasons elapsed between his age 24 last innings with the O's and age 31 flop with the Phillies.

Remember the three "promising" pitchers we got for Sidney Ponson? Ponson somehow managed to pitch five more major league seasons than any of them (including a return through free agency to the Os).

Sad era to recall. When our greatest hope sometimes seemed to be Jason Johnson!

[Jammer7]

5 hours ago, Frobby said:

Thanks for the evidence....NOT!!!

And to be crystal clear, whether the league would have adjusted is a separate issue from whether the league had adjusted. There’s no evidence whatsoever that they had, at the time he got hurt.

Whatever you say....Hype abounds you about the journeyman Bergesen. I know a mediocre journeyman when I see one. Bergesen was just that. But you just keep on going. You are the Bergesen Hype Machine. 

Love live Brad Bergesen. 

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Jammer7 said:

Whatever you say....Hype abounds you about the journeyman Bergesen. I know a mediocre journeyman when I see one. Bergesen was just that. But you just keep on going. You are the Bergesen Hype Machine. 

Love live Brad Bergesen. 

You are pissing me off and mischaracterizing what I said.   I said he wasn’t a highly hyped prospect before reaching the majors.   I never said the guy was great.   I will say he got terrific results in 2009 and the league had not caught up to him when he got hurt.    I have no idea if he would have been more successful after July 2009 if he hadn’t gotten hurt.    I’m not claiming he would have; how would I know?

[Il BuonO]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

You are pissing me off and mischaracterizing what I said.   I said he wasn’t a highly hyped prospect before reaching the majors.   I never said the guy was great.   I will say he got terrific results in 2009 and the league had not caught up to him when he got hurt.    I have no idea if he would have been more successful after July 2009 if he hadn’t gotten hurt.    I’m not claiming he would have; how would I know?

I’ve always known deep down you were a Bergesen apologist.  

 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Il BuonO said:

I’ve always known deep down you were a Bergesen apologist.  

 

It's been an open secret. 

[Il BuonO]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

It's been an open secret. 

Yeah, but that temper! 

Frobby, we hardly knew ye?

 

[Il BuonO]

1 hour ago, Jammer7 said:

Whatever you say....Hype abounds you about the journeyman Bergesen. I know a mediocre journeyman when I see one. Bergesen was just that. But you just keep on going. You are the Bergesen Hype Machine. 

Love live Brad Bergesen. 

Little confused by your reasoning. Frobby is maybe one of the people least likely to “hype” anyone and I’ve been on this site since 2012. And how exactly does listing Bergesen’s declining ERA equate to Frobby hyping him?

[LA2]

3 hours ago, Il BuonO said:

Little confused by your reasoning. Frobby is maybe one of the people least likely to “hype” anyone and I’ve been on this site since 2012. And how exactly does listing Bergesen’s declining ERA equate to Frobby hyping him?

Because the last ERA actually rose Haha. I actually agree with FRobby, just wanted to point that out.

Besides Bergesen was just so much fun to follow each start, the way he came out of nowhere like the Little Engine that could and outdid the rest of the roundhouse. Don't want to sully the memory of that.

 

[Jammer7]

13 hours ago, Frobby said:

You are pissing me off and mischaracterizing what I said.   I said he wasn’t a highly hyped prospect before reaching the majors.   I never said the guy was great.   I will say he got terrific results in 2009 and the league had not caught up to him when he got hurt.    I have no idea if he would have been more successful after July 2009 if he hadn’t gotten hurt.    I’m not claiming he would have; how would I know?

All I originally said was that Brad had some brief success, and there were those who “hyped” him to be some long term staple of the rotation. I disagreed with that and characterized him as a journeyman type. You came at me pretty hard there, over something pretty silly really. So, I played along and watched you get all spun up. I laughed the entire way, but you seemed to want to take this silly thing on and on. So, here we are.

This is a message board for fans of the game. Some are more analytical than others. Some have played and coached the game. This is a place for differing opinions, and all should be respected. Heated arguments, well, they’re silly here. If you don’t like my posts, don’t respond. Simple etiquette. Sometimes, you are an overbearing pain in the shorts. You often are reasonable and informative, but you seem intent on arguing with me. What have I ever done to you? Seriously? If this is where this site is heading, then I’m out.

I have many other things more important to do than argue with you the finer points of Brad Bergesen’s short career. No disrespect to Brad. I have little time to look up stats and write some lengthy piece on such menial things. So, don’t feel the need to respond to me if you don’t like what I wrote. Simple. Have a nice day.

[baltimore_chop]

3 hours ago, Jammer7 said:

All I originally said was that Brad had some brief success, and there were those who “hyped” him to be some long term staple of the rotation. I disagreed with that and characterized him as a journeyman type. You came at me pretty hard there, over something pretty silly really. So, I played along and watched you get all spun up. I laughed the entire way, but you seemed to want to take this silly thing on and on. So, here we are.

This is a message board for fans of the game. Some are more analytical than others. Some have played and coached the game. This is a place for differing opinions, and all should be respected. Heated arguments, well, they’re silly here. If you don’t like my posts, don’t respond. Simple etiquette. Sometimes, you are an overbearing pain in the shorts. You often are reasonable and informative, but you seem intent on arguing with me. What have I ever done to you? Seriously? If this is where this site is heading, then I’m out.

I have many other things more important to do than argue with you the finer points of Brad Bergesen’s short career. No disrespect to Brad. I have little time to look up stats and write some lengthy piece on such menial things. So, don’t feel the need to respond to me if you don’t like what I wrote. Simple. Have a nice day.

Dude, message boards are meant to display logical reasoning to opinions. I don't know why you're calling what he said silly. He presented an opinion, gave stats and facts to back it up, and nothing else. You were the one that used emotion to make an opinion. 

[LookinUp]

For what it's worth, I do remember a local hype for Bergesen at the time. I don't think scouts were ever really into him, but he won a lot of games in Bowie and seemed to have pitchability, or something, that could overcome his peripherals. I think his supporters latched onto his GB rate and ran with it.

He's really one of a million guys who come along and produce either in the minors or for a small sample size in the majors, so we start to like him. All the while, real scouts are telling us that it won't last. We don't want to believe it, but they're right. 

I think this site in particular has really improved over the years in articulating the differences in our prospects. However, even now, us "smart" fans tend to discount the negative. Look at Mountcastle. I love the hit tool, and he's having a very nice year in AAA, but his OPS is ~.100 less than marginal prospect DJ Stewart right now and he provides basically zero positional value. He has a real profile problem (k/bb) and we don't like to talk about it. Hays too. It's not that we don't like these players, it's that I think we go overboard on expectations because we discount what is staring us right in the face.

My recollection is that many were the same way with Bergesen at the time (probably including me). He wasn't going to be the ace. He was just going to be a reliable #3/4 type forever. 

[Jammer7]

1 hour ago, baltimore_chop said:

Dude, message boards are meant to display logical reasoning to opinions. I don't know why you're calling what he said silly. He presented an opinion, gave stats and facts to back it up, and nothing else. You were the one that used emotion to make an opinion. 

Emotions? Not me. Observations? Yes. And I think you may be confused about the reason for message boards and respecting the opinion of others. 

And, for the record, I did actually look up his stats. (Slow day at work.) His FIP (4.10) and era+ (133) for 2009 were just a hair above the mark of average. His batting average against was up 82 points (which might indicate some adjustments perhaps...no?) in July 2009, compared to June, before he took a shot off his shin, effectively ending his season. That year was solid, but unspectacular. Great GB/FB rate for a sinker/slider guy. 

And this entire conversation about whether some people over-hyped this fella over a solid first year...has become...silly. So, feel free to down vote this one too, dude. Been on this site for 23 years. You are the first down vote I have received. Way to go! 

With this post, I am done with this. 

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=bergebr02&year=2009&t=p

[Enjoy Terror]

 

Interesting thread looking back, knowing now that he'd be a 23-year old rookie on the Orioles with a 3.43 ERA over 19 games.

[TINSTAAPP]

1 hour ago, LookinUp said:

For what it's worth, I do remember a local hype for Bergesen at the time. I don't think scouts were ever really into him, but he won a lot of games in Bowie and seemed to have pitchability, or something, that could overcome his peripherals. I think his supporters latched onto his GB rate and ran with it.

He's really one of a million guys who come along and produce either in the minors or for a small sample size in the majors, so we start to like him. All the while, real scouts are telling us that it won't last. We don't want to believe it, but they're right. 

I think this site in particular has really improved over the years in articulating the differences in our prospects. However, even now, us "smart" fans tend to discount the negative. Look at Mountcastle. I love the hit tool, and he's having a very nice year in AAA, but his OPS is ~.100 less than marginal prospect DJ Stewart right now and he provides basically zero positional value. He has a real profile problem (k/bb) and we don't like to talk about it. Hays too. It's not that we don't like these players, it's that I think we go overboard on expectations because we discount what is staring us right in the face.

My recollection is that many were the same way with Bergesen at the time (probably including me). He wasn't going to be the ace. He was just going to be a reliable #3/4 type forever. 

 

Bergesen's numbers didn't fall off because the league caught up to him. He injured his shoulder shooting a stupid MASN commercial and was never the same after that. His sinker in particular never returned to the same effectiveness that it had in his rookie year.

[LookinUp]

Just now, TINSTAAPP said:

 

Bergesen's numbers didn't fall off because the league caught up to him. He injured his shoulder shooting a stupid MASN commercial and was never the same after that. His sinker in particular never returned to the same effectiveness that it had in his rookie year.

Before that he got drilled in the shin/knee, right? I thought that was the first part of his downfall, followed by the commercial. Maybe I have them backwards though. 

Either way, he had like a 4.5/9 K rate in AA. It's hard to imagine he'd stick for long without taking a major developmental step forward.