Frederick Dropped

[Tony-OH]

7 minutes ago, MurphDogg said:

Bowie is closer to Baltimore than Frederick is, and like Frederick, is pretty close to equidistant to both cities. Prince George's Stadium is 27.3 miles to Camden Yards and 20.6 miles to Nats Park (driving distance).

With the respective traffic of the two cities, it is almost always a faster drive to Bowie from Baltimore than DC.

Here's the thing though, people in PG county consider themselves Washington people. They are primarily Redskin fans and were Senator fans before they left. they adopted the Orioles. Frederick was a rural town until the last 15 or so years where it's built up with yuppies, many of which have begun to assimilate themselves with Washington over Baltimore. I don't think the Baysox being in Bowie is creating new fans.

In Bowie, most of the fans that go are coming from the Crofton, Gambrills, Annapolis and AA County area, but they haven't been drawing very well the last few years and they have one of the worse Double-A stadiums around. I watch a lot of videos and Prince George's stadium is one of the worse stadiums by far and they've done little to improve the fan experience. Heck Bowie doesn't even announce their games on MiLB TV when many other affiliates do.

Frederick draws well and has been putting money unto their stadium to improve the fan experience for the most part. In Frederick, with no Baltimore affiliate up there, I think that entire area of fans, especially the younger generation are going to become Nats fans. So basically I believe the Bowie area is already lost to the Nats while Frederick was still up for grabs but won't be now that they've lost their affiliate with the Orioles. Sure, old school fans are not going to change, but as Frederick grows, and it's growing rapidly, I think they lose a lot of potential Orioles fans.

The Orioles are in quite of a dilemma for gaining new fans. They have a city that few families want to venture into due to safety concerns, they have a team that hasn't been in a World Series since 1983, and have been one of the worse teams in baseball since 2018 and staring at another year where management trades away players that will help win games from DSL players and draft picks. Crowds have been dwindling 

For fans like us, that doesn't matter as much because we are in this for life, but there is not a lot of excitement from the millennial crowd for the Baltimore Orioles. The attendance at Camden Yards has fallen every year since the Freddie Gray riots that caused the game on 29 April to be played with no fans. 

The Orioles have fallen from an average of 30,426 in 2014 to 16,146 in 2019.

Heck, the 1988 Orioles that started off 0-21 and in dilapidated Memorial Stadium drew 20, 630 fans.

The last time the Orioles drew worse was in 1976 when they averaged 13.069 which was actually the 6th highest attendance for the franchise at the time.

Whether people want to admit it or not, the Baltimore Orioles have a huge attendance and fan excitement problem. Sure, there are lots of other things that get people's attention now, and the Nats certainly has hurt bringing in the Washington and Northern Virginia crowd especially during the week when trying to get from Northern Virginia to Baltimore is pretty horrible during the week when they can hop a metro and be in Nats Stadium and still catch a game. 

But Frederick in my mind was an area that was once solid Orioles territory that will now go Nats heavy after they lose the affiliation.

Camden Yards is a beautiful stadium that is a great fan experience, and perhaps winning again one day will make it once again a place to go often, but the city's image does nothing to help the Orioles draw people anymore and that means we may never see consistent large crowds once again in Camden Yards.

 

 

[MurphDogg]

14 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

For fans like us, that doesn't matter as much because we are in this for life, but there is not a lot of excitement from the millennial crowd for the Baltimore Orioles. The attendance at Camden Yards has fallen every year since the Freddie Gray riots that caused the game on 29 April to be played with no fans. 

The Orioles have fallen from an average of 30,426 in 2014 to 16,146 in 2019.
Camden Yards is a beautiful stadium that is a great fan experience, and perhaps winning again one day will make it once again a place to go often, but the city's image does nothing to help the Orioles draw people anymore and that means we may never see consistent large crowds once again in Camden Yards.

If you want to attribute the Orioles attendance woes with Freddie Gray and not the team being historically bad, that is your prerogative.

I have lived in downtown Baltimore for over 10 years, it wasn't safer in 2014 when the Orioles when the Orioles won 96 games and the AL East division title than it was in 2019 when the Orioles won 54 games and have continued to actively try to lose games as part of the process.

It didn't get more safe between 2010 when they drew 1.73 millon and 2014 when they drew 2.46 million, they just started winning.

Fans come out for a winning team. When Mike Elias comes out and says that they don't want to accidentally win a few more games, only the diehard fans are going to come out. I am a diehard fan who doesn't have to worry about traffic and parking and I feel kind of foolish buying season tickets to support this team and this process.

[Legend_Of_Joey]

Hagerstown was also dropped. I don't know if the Orioles knew this before hand, but they missed such a golden opportunity here.

If they had kept Frederick, they could have easily gotten the fans from a little further west and really dug into the ground there. Frederick was the highest drawing Carolina League team in 2019 and routinely was the highest drawing team for the previous decade (if not longer.)

Did the Orioles "maybe" try and get the Keys into the league they will be in now to keep the Nats from getting them? Possible. The Orioles say they will still work with the Keys. But that still seems so short sighted. Does this mean the Orioles will get better scouting reports, better access, first dibs on free agents from that league?

[eddie83]

11 minutes ago, MurphDogg said:

If you want to attribute the Orioles attendance woes with Freddie Gray and not the team being historically bad, that is your prerogative.

I have lived in downtown Baltimore for over 10 years, it wasn't safer in 2014 when the Orioles when the Orioles won 96 games and the AL East division title than it was in 2019 when the Orioles won 54 games and have continued to actively try to lose games as part of the process.

It didn't get more safe between 2010 when they drew 1.73 millon and 2014 when they drew 2.46 million, they just started winning.

Fans come out for a winning team. When Mike Elias comes out and says that they don't want to accidentally win a few more games, only the diehard fans are going to come out. I am a diehard fan who doesn't have to worry about traffic and parking and I feel kind of foolish buying season tickets to support this team and this process.

As someone who lives in the suburbs I think you are being a bit naive here about how Baltimore is viewed. Maybe data shows it’s not any more dangerous now than it was a decade ago, the perception is very different however.  
 

Not saying the rebuild/losing  isn’t the biggest reason for the decline, I agree with that. 

[eddie83]

15 minutes ago, Legend_Of_Joey said:

Hagerstown was also dropped. I don't know if the Orioles knew this before hand, but they missed such a golden opportunity here.

If they had kept Frederick, they could have easily gotten the fans from a little further west and really dug into the ground there. Frederick was the highest drawing Carolina League team in 2019 and routinely was the highest drawing team for the previous decade (if not longer.)

Did the Orioles "maybe" try and get the Keys into the league they will be in now to keep the Nats from getting them? Possible. The Orioles say they will still work with the Keys. But that still seems so short sighted. Does this mean the Orioles will get better scouting reports, better access, first dibs on free agents from that league?

I would think it means more PR events in Frederick. Along those lines. 
 

Hagerstown has an outdated stadium for years to say the least. I doubt they ever get a team back. 

[eddie83]

I know basically nothing about the Bowie area. I always considered Frederick to be Orioles/Redskins country. That said the Ravens have made huge inroads in the Frederick area. I think Tony is correct that Frederick is an area to watch as far as Nats fandom. 

[Tony-OH]

30 minutes ago, MurphDogg said:

If you want to attribute the Orioles attendance woes with Freddie Gray and not the team being historically bad, that is your prerogative.

I have lived in downtown Baltimore for over 10 years, it wasn't safer in 2014 when the Orioles when the Orioles won 96 games and the AL East division title than it was in 2019 when the Orioles won 54 games and have continued to actively try to lose games as part of the process.

It didn't get more safe between 2010 when they drew 1.73 millon and 2014 when they drew 2.46 million, they just started winning.

Fans come out for a winning team. When Mike Elias comes out and says that they don't want to accidentally win a few more games, only the diehard fans are going to come out. I am a diehard fan who doesn't have to worry about traffic and parking and I feel kind of foolish buying season tickets to support this team and this process.

We've had this discussion before and not worth getting into. You have strong feelings as do the many, many people I've talked to who have differing feelings. Certainly the team sucking has contributed, but the team sucked for most of the 2000s and drew quite well. 

Die hards are die hards, they are always going to come out in some fashion. The problem is there are less die-hards being developed while the team sucks. When you add in a city that is not a place many families feel safe visiting you are going to have continuing attendance woes.

Perhaps if the Orioles become great again they can approach the 30K mark like in 2014, but if I'm a better man the Orioles will never draw over 30K in a season again.

[wildcard]

This is really a result of Frederick City Government not spending the money to upgrade the Frederick Park's Clubhouse.   MLB considers it below standard.   Now they don't have the Orioles or the Nats.  The Nats picked up the Wilmington Blue Rock instead on coming to Frederick.     

So Covid hits,  local governments lose revenue just as the MLB is reorganizing.   Frederick probably was not in a position to commit to upgrading at the Park at this time.    So the result is the Frederick goes from a affiliated full season team to an Unaffiliated short season team.   

I don't blame the O's or the Nats or MLB.   They all have their reasons.  Its really Frederick City Government that did not provide the facilities to compete with other minor league Parks.  

From what I have read.

[fitzi22]

Oh and by the way this “Draft League” idea seems kinda dumb.  It’s kinda like an Arizona fall league but for guys who aren’t drafted yet.  I give it a coin flip that it will succeed.  That being said I’m sure they are thrilled the #1 attendance Carolina League team will be part of it, maybe even anchor it.

[Frobby]

10 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

We've had this discussion before and not worth getting into. You have strong feelings as do the many, many people I've talked to who have differing feelings. Certainly the team sucking has contributed, but the team sucked for most of the 2000s and drew quite well. 

Die hards are die hards, they are always going to come out in some fashion. The problem is there are less die-hards being developed while the team sucks. When you add in a city that is not a place many families feel safe visiting you are going to have continuing attendance woes.

Perhaps if the Orioles become great again they can approach the 30K mark like in 2014, but if I'm a better man the Orioles will never draw over 30K in a season again.

It’s never all one thing.   I think it’s obvious that the biggest reason that attendance had dropped is that the team has been bad the last few years.   But it would be totally naive to say the riots and the hit to Baltimore’s image didn’t play a role.    And, attendance has been slightly down all over baseball, so that factors in as well.   

[Philip]

Anybody have a large Frederick Keys coffee cup for sale? Used is fine.

[Roll Tide]

14 hours ago, BohKnowsBmore said:

 

I think you both have the conclusion backwards. Orioles would prefer to keep Bowie specifically because it’s contested territory. Similar to the “this is birdland” billboard on 295S as you enter DC. 

 

They can lose either area to the Nationals....But Frederick is a more natural fit to Baltimore IMO. I'd love to compare the attendance figures the past 5 years at Frederick and Bowie.

 

 

14 hours ago, scOtt said:

This is an MLB decision isn't it? Not the O's. Maybe I'm thinking wrong.

I am sure the Orioles had a say in which affiliates it kept!

[eddie83]

19 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

We've had this discussion before and not worth getting into. You have strong feelings as do the many, many people I've talked to who have differing feelings. Certainly the team sucking has contributed, but the team sucked for most of the 2000s and drew quite well. 

Die hards are die hards, they are always going to come out in some fashion. The problem is there are less die-hards being developed while the team sucks. When you add in a city that is not a place many families feel safe visiting you are going to have continuing attendance woes.

Perhaps if the Orioles become great again they can approach the 30K mark like in 2014, but if I'm a better man the Orioles will never draw over 30K in a season again.

I think a big issue in all sports is the younger fan. Not just talking locally but I think 20/25/30 years ago the 18-30 crowd was more into going to sporting events than this generation. The younger crowd from years ago now is older with families and just can’t in an instant on a Tuesday night say let’s go to a game. 
 

The next 3-5 years attendance in all sports will be a major topic.  

[Legend_Of_Joey]

They better be able to keep Keyote as their mascot for this new league...

[MurphDogg]

8 minutes ago, Frobby said:

It’s never all one thing.   I think it’s obvious that the biggest reason that attendance had dropped is that the team has been bad the last few years.   But it would be totally naive to say the riots and the hit to Baltimore’s image didn’t play a role.    And, attendance has been slightly down all over baseball, so that factors in as well.  

I certainly didn't mean to say that there was no impact from the image, clearly the crowd Tony hangs out with is afraid of the crime in the city. I didn't mean to downplay the fears of his friends, but they are much more likely to be injured in a car accident driving to or from the city than be a victim of a crime in or around Camden Yards.

Yeah, the murder rate is up and the city isn't perfect, but nobody is shooting at O's fans between Lot H and Gate D.