O’s re-sign Eshelman

[DrungoHazewood]

On 1/18/2021 at 11:54 AM, Yardball85 said:

While not the best example, the Yankees "sell off" in 2016 shows that a rebuild does not need to take years and years.  They traded a huge trade chip in Chapman for Gleyber Torres, traded Andrew Miller for some good pieces, traded Beltran for Tate (which got them Britton shortly thereafter) made a few more moves, and were competitive again.  Again, they operate with different financial constraints, etc., but this is proof that a rebuild does not need to include purposely terrible seasons.

Did you really write a paragraph about how the Yanks took $7 trillion and a deep system and reloaded in three weeks, so there's no reason for any team to ever tank?  The Yanks' "different financial constraints, etc" include literally two-and-a-half times the revenues of the Orioles.

[Oriole1940]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

I will say watching Eshleman pitch is similar to watching a bomb squad diffuse a bomb. You hope he gets through it unscathed, but you are always prepared for it to go off.

Yes, I gave up on Eshleman once already.  Maybe I was a bit hasty, but I ran out of excuses to root for him, other than he wore an Orioles uniform.  Hopefully he is a late bloomer.    

[Yardball85]

2 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Did you really write a paragraph about how the Yanks took $7 trillion and a deep system and reloaded in three weeks, so there's no reason for any team to ever tank?  The Yanks' "different financial constraints, etc" include literally two-and-a-half times the revenues of the Orioles.

I really did write the paragraph, yea.  Imagine that!!  I said the situations are obviously different, but it is possible for a team to trade off major assets and not suck for the next 3-5 seasons.  

[Sports Guy]

14 hours ago, Yardball85 said:

I really did write the paragraph, yea.  Imagine that!!  I said the situations are obviously different, but it is possible for a team to trade off major assets and not suck for the next 3-5 seasons.  

And just to add to this, while it obviously helps that the Yankees can spend money, they were burned by a lot of the high priced guys in 2017, a year they won 91 games.

Tanaka wasn’t good that year.  Ellsbury was a zero.  Holliday and Headley were very mediocre.  Gardner had a good year and Castro was decent

Their best players were Judge, Sanchez, Severino, Didi and Chapman.  Mostly home grown guys.  
 

 

[VaBird1]

15 hours ago, Yardball85 said:

I really did write the paragraph, yea.  Imagine that!!  I said the situations are obviously different, but it is possible for a team to trade off major assets and not suck for the next 3-5 seasons.  

And the way they do it is the way the Orioles have to do it to be relevant.  Good international scouting every year and effective domestic draft modeling so they consistently  have a decent farm system (in addition to their money).

[Yardball85]

45 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

And just to add to this, while it obviously helps that the Yankees can spend money, they were burned by a lot of the high priced guys in 2017, a year they won 91 games.

Tanaka wasn’t good that year.  Ellsbury was a zero.  Holliday and Headley were very mediocre.  Gardner had a good year and Castro was decent

Their best players were Judge, Sanchez, Severino, Didi and Chapman.  Mostly home grown guys.  
 

 

Exactly.  It was good international signing and scouting (which we obviously weren't doing until the regime change) and smart trades to replenish the farm system.  

[DrungoHazewood]

53 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

And just to add to this, while it obviously helps that the Yankees can spend money, they were burned by a lot of the high priced guys in 2017, a year they won 91 games.

Tanaka wasn’t good that year.  Ellsbury was a zero.  Holliday and Headley were very mediocre.  Gardner had a good year and Castro was decent

Their best players were Judge, Sanchez, Severino, Didi and Chapman.  Mostly home grown guys. 

Exactly.  They have multiple sources of talent financed by their massive revenue streams that provide insurance against failures that would cripple other organizations.

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Exactly.  They have multiple sources of talent financed by their massive revenue streams that provide insurance against failures that would cripple other organizations.

And in this case, it was home grown talent..something every single team can and does do.

They didn’t win that year because they spent a lot of money.  They won because their organization was starting to build things the right way again.  Sure, they had some guys performing well for them who made decent salaries but basically all of them would be affordable by any organization.

[DrungoHazewood]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

And in this case, it was home grown talent..something every single team can and does do.

They didn’t win that year because they spent a lot of money.  They won because their organization was starting to build things the right way again.  Sure, they had some guys performing well for them who made decent salaries but basically all of them would be affordable by any organization.

In any year a team is going to have players who have good years, and players with off years.  The '17 Yankees had a payroll of nearly $200M, and revenues of over $600M.  Saying they won because of home grown, cheap talent any team can and should replicate is a pretty huge oversimplification.

Their 3rd starter was CC, making $25M.  Could they have found a cheap alternative to replace his 3 wins?  I guess, but they went with the less risky option because money doesn't matter.  They traded for Sonny Gray because paying him arb-2 and arb-3 money comes out of their coffee mess.  They paid Robertson and Chapman a combined $30M and they were okay... and it's fine because money doesn't matter.  They traded for Chase Headley knowing full well that he was just an average guy because $13M is trivial to them, they never have to put a guy in the lineup who might OPS .620 if things go wrong and stick with him.

In any given year the Yanks expect to win 90 games because they have vastly more resources than the O's or Rays or Blue Jays or most any other team.  They have the ability to use a diverse set of talent pipelines because they can take on contracts without even thinking about it, that other teams would have to pass on.  The Orioles have to build from within, but for the Yanks that's just one of a bunch of ways they acquire talent.

[Sports Guy]

21 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

In any year a team is going to have players who have good years, and players with off years.  The '17 Yankees had a payroll of nearly $200M, and revenues of over $600M.  Saying they won because of home grown, cheap talent any team can and should replicate is a pretty huge oversimplification.

Their 3rd starter was CC, making $25M.  Could they have found a cheap alternative to replace his 3 wins?  I guess, but they went with the less risky option because money doesn't matter.  They traded for Sonny Gray because paying him arb-2 and arb-3 money comes out of their coffee mess.  They paid Robertson and Chapman a combined $30M and they were okay... and it's fine because money doesn't matter.  They traded for Chase Headley knowing full well that he was just an average guy because $13M is trivial to them, they never have to put a guy in the lineup who might OPS .620 if things go wrong and stick with him.

In any given year the Yanks expect to win 90 games because they have vastly more resources than the O's or Rays or Blue Jays or most any other team.  They have the ability to use a diverse set of talent pipelines because they can take on contracts without even thinking about it, that other teams would have to pass on.  The Orioles have to build from within, but for the Yanks that's just one of a bunch of ways they acquire talent.

All of this is great...but they still won in 2017 and set themselves up well for the long term by rebuilding for a year.  Even after making those moves in 2016, they still made a late run with some of the young talent they had.  
 

They put themselves in position to contend immediately by making those moves.  Yes, they can do whatever they want money wise but teams still win because of their home grown talent.  

[Tony-OH]

Eshleman is reading through this thread like, "Man, I thought this was about me!"

[LookinUp]

38 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

All of this is great...but they still won in 2017 and set themselves up well for the long term by rebuilding for a year.  Even after making those moves in 2016, they still made a late run with some of the young talent they had.  
 

They put themselves in position to contend immediately by making those moves.  Yes, they can do whatever they want money wise but teams still win because of their home grown talent.  

And how many other years have the Yankees contended on the backs of home grown talent?

Any decent/good franchise can have a wave of talent. Having a steady river is what it takes to compete consistently with the Yanks.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, LookinUp said:

And how many other years have the Yankees contended on the backs of home grown talent?

Any decent/good franchise can have a wave of talent. Having a steady river is what it takes to compete consistently with the Yanks.

Like the Rays?

How do the Rays keep that steady river going?  Is it by trading guys like Santander? 

[LookinUp]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

Like the Rays?

How do the Rays keep that steady river going?  Is it by trading guys like Santander? 

Another good point. Two responses. #1. They're the best. We're better than we've been in years at this acquire/develop talent thing, but not close to the Rays yet. #2. We shouldn't be forced to do this as often as the Rays. We should have more financial resources than them, and be able to support a larger payroll.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, LookinUp said:

Another good point. Two responses. #1. They're the best. We're better than we've been in years at this acquire/develop talent thing, but not close to the Rays yet. #2. We shouldn't be forced to do this as often as the Rays. We should have more financial resources than them, and be able to support a larger payroll.

I agree that we should.

But honestly, the Rays can afford a higher payroll, they just choose not to because the owner wants a higher ROI.  I fear the Orioles will be in the same situation.