Effect of Tatis deal on Adley

[DirtyBird]

On 2/18/2021 at 8:33 AM, Moose Milligan said:

Unbelievable.  Bobby Bonilla gets another payday the year AFTER Tatis's deal expires.

Bonilla is an idiot for not making it part of that contract to take the annual payments in Bitcoin.

[Hallas]

On 2/18/2021 at 3:16 PM, Sports Guy said:

I continue to believe C defense is a vastly overrated thing in baseball, especially in an era where no one steals bases.

I think that having a plus-defensive catcher is overrated.  But having Cisco and his noodle arm can potentially be costly.  There are enough fast guys out there that exploit the crap out of a catcher that can't throw well.  It's practically a guaranteed steal for those guys.  You need to be at least average IMO.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Hallas said:

I think that having a plus-defensive catcher is overrated.  But having Cisco and his noodle arm can potentially be costly.  There are enough fast guys out there that exploit the crap out of a catcher that can't throw well.  It's practically a guaranteed steal for those guys.  You need to be at least average IMO.

But the numbers don't seem to support that.

So if they could run but don't who cares?

[Sports Guy]

36 minutes ago, Hallas said:

I think that having a plus-defensive catcher is overrated.  But having Cisco and his noodle arm can potentially be costly.  There are enough fast guys out there that exploit the crap out of a catcher that can't throw well.  It's practically a guaranteed steal for those guys.  You need to be at least average IMO.

I get what you are saying but it’s still not something I would be concerned about. Now, if that catcher is also garbage hitting, that’s a different story.  But if they are a plus with the bat, I don’t really care.

I just think the whole C pitchers is vastly overrated in terms of being “so valuable”.

I would trade a top C for a top position player (or top pitcher) at practically at spot on the Diamond..of course, salary, age and service time comes into play with that but all things being equal, I’m good with that concept.

[Hallas]

6 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I get what you are saying but it’s still not something I would be concerned about. Now, if that catcher is also garbage hitting, that’s a different story.  But if they are a plus with the bat, I don’t really care.

I just think the whole C pitchers is vastly overrated in terms of being “so valuable”.

I would trade a top C for a top position player (or top pitcher) at practically at spot on the Diamond..of course, salary, age and service time comes into play with that but all things being equal, I’m good with that concept.

I think that catchers are mostly valuable because no one wants to be catcher, and because so few people can play the position without their knees falling off at age 30.  I agree that there is some overrating as far as defensive catchers is concerned, but I'm not sure if I'm necessarily willing to trade a top flight catcher for any other position.  Especially not a corner outfielder.

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, Hallas said:

https://tht.fangraphs.com/re-examining-wars-defensive-spectrum/

https://library.fangraphs.com/misc/war/positional-adjustment/

 

 

I stand humbly corrected.   I’d read that definition as posted by Can_of_corn before I posted, but somehow glazed over that part.   You are right.   

[Frobby]

54 minutes ago, Hallas said:

I think that having a plus-defensive catcher is overrated.  But having Cisco and his noodle arm can potentially be costly.  There are enough fast guys out there that exploit the crap out of a catcher that can't throw well.  It's practically a guaranteed steal for those guys.  You need to be at least average IMO.

I think throwing out basestealers is probably the most overrated part of catcher defense.    Teams attempt a steal less than once per game, yet a catcher has to frame about 150 pitches, probably block 5-10 pitches in the dirt with runners on base, chase down foul flies that have crazy spin, field bunts and make quick decisions where to throw, and occasionally receive a throw and make a tag at the plate.    You can have a good defensive catcher who is not particularly good at throwing out basestealers.   

The evidence does not suggest that Sisco is one of those.   

[Sports Guy]

1 hour ago, Hallas said:

I think that catchers are mostly valuable because no one wants to be catcher, and because so few people can play the position without their knees falling off at age 30.  I agree that there is some overrating as far as defensive catchers is concerned, but I'm not sure if I'm necessarily willing to trade a top flight catcher for any other position.  Especially not a corner outfielder.

But that COer is likely to play a lot more(most top catchers are playing 140ish games a year) and be healthier.

That being said, I tend to agree that I may not trade for a COer but it depends on the player.  I certainly would trade one for a CFer, SS, Third baseman and perhaps a first baseman who is a top flight bat.  
 

Second base?  Maybe.  Depends on the player.  

[Hallas]

10 hours ago, Frobby said:

I think throwing out basestealers is probably the most overrated part of catcher defense.    Teams attempt a steal less than once per game, yet a catcher has to frame about 150 pitches, probably block 5-10 pitches in the dirt with runners on base, chase down foul flies that have crazy spin, field bunts and make quick decisions where to throw, and occasionally receive a throw and make a tag at the plate.    You can have a good defensive catcher who is not particularly good at throwing out basestealers.   

The evidence does not suggest that Sisco is one of those.   

Well he's both a terrible pitch framer and a terrible thrower.  

 

In 2019 the difference between the best and worst catcher for basestealing was 15 runs, or 1.5 wins.  This is skewed by the fact that Realmuto is a country mile better than anyone else.  The 2nd best vs worst is 9 runs.  That's enough to turn a backup into a regular, or a regular into an all star. 

 

edit to add:

The difference in overall defensive contribution according to Fangraphs between the best and worst catchers is 35 runs.  For SS it's 22 runs.  So basestealing is about 30-40% of that.