How far are the O's away from being a winning team?

[owknows]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Lol...do you really think the Orioles haven’t valued saving money over trades?  You don’t think there is factual evidence there? Seriously?

Once again...  sophistry and attempts to shift the argument won't work here.

Nor will things like using the word "we think" to describe your opinion instead of "I think" in hopes of adding the weight of plurality.

You stated that the owners are "cheapskates" and that squeezing money out of the team is what motivates their actions. Moreover, you declare this opinion of yours to be a fact. When challenged you attempted to shift the argument to "the Orioles are trying to save money" which was of course never in question.

What was in question was your declaration of WHY they were trying to save money.

I get the impression that this kind of sleight of hand has been successful for you in the past. But it is pretty transparent really.

[owknows]

8 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

We are obviously talking about payroll.

Were we?

Why would these notorious cheapskates only be misers about payroll, and not facilities and travel, and meals, and Latin American Infrastructure?

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, owknows said:

Once again...  sophistry and attempts to shift the argument won't work here.

Nor will things like using the word "we think" to describe your opinion instead of "I think" in hopes of adding the weight of plurality.

You stated that the owners are "cheapskates" and that squeezing money out of the team is what motivates their actions. Moreover, you declare this opinion of yours to be a fact. When challenged you attempted to shift the argument to "the Orioles are trying to save money" which was of course never in question.

What was in question was your declaration of WHY they were trying to save money.

I get the impression that this kind of sleight of hand has been successful for you in the past. But it is pretty transparent really.

I’m not shifting anything.  My assertion from the beginning was that they have valued saving money over trade return and that Elias can’t do things he would like to do, like “buying a prospect”.  These are facts, including a fact that elias himself publicly said.  They are absolutely being cheap about the payroll and, to bring this back to how this started, being able to say “we have a top farm system” is a way to deflect that from the fans because they buy into the “rebuilding” excuse.

I have never wavered off of any of that.  You are the one moving the goal posts and not answering the question. 
 

[Aristotelian]

Reach .500 with the young guys then start spending money to put us over the top. We are nowhere near that now. If it happens it will probably be when Rutsxhman and Grayson are in the Majors, at minimum. We did Tejada and Belle under Angelos and proved it doesn't work.

 

[Sports Guy]

Just now, owknows said:

Were we?

I am..that has been obvious.  I haven’t talked about anything else but that.

[owknows]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I’m shifting anything.

Dr. Freud...  your slip is showing.

 

(I guess you repaired your Freudian Slip with an edit.. pity... it was kinda funny.)

Edited May 13, 2021 by owknows

[owknows]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I am..that has been obvious.  I haven’t talked about anything else but that.

You seem to have run afoul of the "we" vs. "I' thing again.

[maybenxtyr]

Back to the topic of the original question...this team is still obviously closer to a 100 loss team rather than a 90 or so win team. 

 

The questions that needs an answer are the same as they've been for a while. They still need 3/4 of an infield, a consistent corner OF, and several starters. 

 

I think some of the questions will be answered by having an actual MiL season, but there will need to be some augmenting of the roster at the end of the season.

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, maybenxtyr said:

Back to the topic of the original question...this team is still obviously closer to a 100 loss team rather than a 90 or so win team. 

 

The questions that needs an answer are the same as they've been for a while. They still need 3/4 of an infield, a consistent corner OF, and several starters. 

 

I think some of the questions will be answered by having an actual MiL season, but there will need to be some augmenting of the roster at the end of the season.

Go get German Marquez.  

[Redskins Rick]

12 minutes ago, maybenxtyr said:

Back to the topic of the original question...this team is still obviously closer to a 100 loss team rather than a 90 or so win team. 

 

The questions that needs an answer are the same as they've been for a while. They still need 3/4 of an infield, a consistent corner OF, and several starters. 

 

I think some of the questions will be answered by having an actual MiL season, but there will need to be some augmenting of the roster at the end of the season.

The original post was meant to stir up a disagreeable discussion, and their goal was achieved.

 

[forphase1]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Yes, the rebuild is over.  We have torn down the roster.  We have drafted early for several years in a row. (One of which wasn’t part of the rebuild). We have gotten younger, built up the farm system and taken away long term contract commitments.  
 

All of that is what you do when you rebuild.  
 

Now it’s time to start building back up.

We will have to agree to disagree.  Yes, I think much of the 'heavy lifting' of the rebuild is over, but the rebuild isn't complete until the team is competitive, which it currently is not.  Once enough young talent is in the majors and ready to perform, THEN is the time to complete the rebuild by adding some key free agent pieces to the puzzle and start challenging for playoff spots and the like.  We are not at that point yet unfortunately, hence the rebuild is not yet complete.  The hope of this fan is that enough of the top talent in the minors take sufficient steps forward this year that it can be reasonably justified to feel our 'window' is starting to open, and thus it makes sense to add some free agent talent in the spots our farm system isn't quite ready to fill (a few SP spots maybe, some up the middle infield types, etc).  

I don't disagree at all that the rebuild has been a long, frustrating thing.  All of us wish there could have been a magical switch we could flip and go from one of the worst ran teams in the league to the top quickly.  But that really isn't possible, and to do it right takes time.

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

We will have to agree to disagree.  Yes, I think much of the 'heavy lifting' of the rebuild is over, but the rebuild isn't complete until the team is competitive, which it currently is not.  Once enough young talent is in the majors and ready to perform, THEN is the time to complete the rebuild by adding some key free agent pieces to the puzzle and start challenging for playoff spots and the like.  We are not at that point yet unfortunately, hence the rebuild is not yet complete.  The hope of this fan is that enough of the top talent in the minors take sufficient steps forward this year that it can be reasonably justified to feel our 'window' is starting to open, and thus it makes sense to add some free agent talent in the spots our farm system isn't quite ready to fill (a few SP spots maybe, some up the middle infield types, etc).  

I don't disagree at all that the rebuild has been a long, frustrating thing.  All of us wish there could have been a magical switch we could flip and go from one of the worst ran teams in the league to the top quickly.  But that really isn't possible, and to do it right takes time.

But you can slow roll promotions and trade off guys in such a manner that you never actually get to critical mass.  That way you never actually have to start adding payroll.

[wildcard]

On 4/27/2021 at 10:25 AM, wildcard said:

82 win?

I don't think that far.

1) They have to find a 2B.  Whether that is Jones, Urias, Valaika or someone else.

2) They need to have 4th and 5th starters that are more consistent and good for at least 5 innings on a regular basis.  Kremer, Lowther look like the best bets in the near term. But Tyler Wells or Sceroler may fit at some point.

3) The catching needs to be solved.  Adley is the solution but when?

4) Mountcastle has to remember how to hit and be a good 1B/DH.

The pen is there already.  I like what I have seen of Means, Harvey, Zimmermann.   The outfield is good enough.   If Andrus can be the SS on a team that wins 13 in a row then I think Galvis can be a SS on a .500 team.   I think Franco is good enough at 3B to be a regular on a .500 team.   Trey looks like he will hit and play good defense at  1B.

I just don't see .500 off in the distance somewhere.   I think the O's are getting closer.

 

Well, you are half right.  The original post was meant to create discussion.    

1)  The 2B and 3B search continues.    Valaika, Urias, Ruiz and Franco have two new challengers with Wilkerson and McCoy playing well at AAA.    I hope Elias picks the three that are doing the best around June 1st.   Wilkerson is intriguing to me since he  had a 783 OPS vs righties in 2019.   If he can do what Mullins has done and figure out how to hit lefties he could help the team.   He plays a good 2B.

I like what Galvis is doing at SS and the Mancini/Mountcastle combo at 1B/DH looks good.

2) Means, Harvey, Lopez and Kremer seem locked in to the top 4 spots for now.   Akins and Tyler Wells seem to me to be the best for the 5th spot.  Of course Harvey could get traded in July.   DL Hall's improvement is exciting.    He could move to AAA in a month or so.   Service time may keep him in the minors though.

3) The solution at catcher looks further away then I hoped.   Adley seems to be in strikeout or homer mode.   There needs to be a adjustment there.

4) Mountcastle did remember how to hit.  Now if Santander can just get healthy and productive.

82 wins seems far fetched at the moment but there is talent on the roster and in the organization if it can just come together.

[forphase1]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

But you can slow roll promotions and trade off guys in such a manner that you never actually get to critical mass.  That way you never actually have to start adding payroll.

Well sure, if Elias wants to sabotage the rebuild and never let us get competitive, he could certainly do so.  But I find it very hard to believe that any ownership group and/or executive would actively TRY to avoid getting to that 'critical mass' so you never have to add payroll.  If that is truly the case then we, the fans, are royally screwed.  However, I see no evidence of that being anywhere close to being the case.  Yes, we have a few 'the sky is falling' fans who every time someone gets a bit hot at the minors feel they should be promoted aggressively up the minor league food chain, even perhaps to the major league club, and the fact it doesn't happen causes great gnashing of teeth and pointing of fingers.  But the proof just isn't there, as of now, to show that we are holding folks back in the hopes of never getting good.  It just doesn't add up.

[Aristotelian]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

Well, you are half right.  The original post was meant to create discussion.    

1)  The 2B and 3B search continues.    Valaika, Urias, Ruiz and Franco have two new challengers with Wilkerson and McCoy playing well at AAA.    I hope Elias picks the three that are doing the best around June 1st.   Wilkerson is intriguing to me since he  had a 783 OPS vs righties in 2019.   If he can do what Mullins has done and figure out how to hit lefties he could help the team.   He plays a good 2B.

Bannon is also off to a hot start in AAA. .886 OPS picking up where he left off. Could he be any worse than Rio? Surely we have established by now that Rio cannot hit MLB pitching.