What do you think of Tyler Wells?

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, LTO's said:

In a SSS literally anything can be very skewed. You can point out that he's got good strikeout numbers and a low walk rate. I will point out that he's giving up home runs at double the league average. And again, these are for the most part, extremely low leverage situations. You either believe that SSS are pretty much worthless or you don't. It's fine to backtrack, but you absolutely were using Tyler Wells as a comparison to Rodriguez. That's foolish. I think Grayrod is a stellar prospect. But even the most ardent pro-player evaluators would balk at moving him into the big league rotation after only 6 starts above low A.

It’s ok..the discussion we are having has layers to it and all of them are difficult for you to understand..clearly.

For you to think that’s how I’m using Wells as an example is literally stupid on your part.

That was merely a comment that if he can hold his own than GRod can.  That isn’t justifying anything.  Just a statement.

If I were to use that as justification, I would be calling for a lot of other players to be up.

And to be clear, I’m not saying GRod should be up right now...although I don’t think it would hurt him and I do think he would be one of the 5 best guys in the rotation.

That being said, if he is pitching like this in a month and he’s been stretched out a little more, I fully think he should come up to the majors.  It’s a waste to leave him down there at that point imo.

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

But if a player who is generally seen as less talented can be challenged in such a fashion and do well why not use that approach with Rodriguez and accelerate his advancement? 

The answer is simple, service time manipulation.

Do you think the team is better with Rodriguez on it?  Do you think it would help or hinder Rodrizuez's career?

It isn't as if we are talking about something unprecedented.  He's 21.  Tons of guys have been pitching in the majors by 21.

 

With a bad team, that is certainly the reason. I'm just not sure why you and SG struggle to understand the economics portion of the game and the way it is set up. I'd love for the collective bargaining agreement to change so it enables teams to bring up these guys earlier. I still like the idea of making all players free agents before their 27-year old season (as of June 1st) regardless of use and years in the major leagues.

I believe development is important, but too often we've seen teams keep major league caliber players in the minors because they were worried about service time issues. 

I can understand why the Orioles, with a limited budget will keep Rutschman, Hall and even Rodriguez in the minors despite the fact they are better than players on their current 26-man roster.

All of them could be getting that experience at the major league level with a bad team, but won't because of the service time issues including arbitration.

 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

With a bad team, that is certainly the reason. I'm just not sure why you and SG struggle to understand the economics portion of the game and the way it is set up. I'd love for the collective bargaining agreement to change so it enables teams to bring up these guys earlier. I still like the idea of making all players free agents before their 27-year old season (as of June 1st) regardless of use and years in the major leagues.

I believe development is important, but too often we've seen teams keep major league caliber players in the minors because they were worried about service time issues. 

I can understand why the Orioles, with a limited budget will keep Rutschman, Hall and even Rodriguez in the minors despite the fact they are better than players on their current 26-man roster.

All of them could be getting that experience at the major league level with a bad team, but won't because of the service time issues including arbitration.

 

We understand it, we just don't agree with it.

[Tony-OH]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

We understand it, we just don't agree with it.

Well both of you are too smart not to realize that the financial side of the game is part of the game. 

From a pure development standpoint, I'd have zero issues with any of those guys getting reps at the major league level after what I've seen so far, but I completely understand why you don't start their clocks right now on a last place team that will be battling for the #1 overall pick again this year.

As I've said before, I hope they change this in the next collective bargaining agreement.

[Aristotelian]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

What does this mean?  What problem?  You have any examples?

Elias seems, to me, to think that his cornerstone players should have their service time games to maximize the value to the big league team.

 

And he is absolutely correct.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Aristotelian said:

And he is absolutely correct.

If you think he's absolutely correct maybe you can tell me what he means or give some examples?

[Sports Guy]

31 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Well both of you are too smart not to realize that the financial side of the game is part of the game. 

From a pure development standpoint, I'd have zero issues with any of those guys getting reps at the major league level after what I've seen so far, but I completely understand why you don't start their clocks right now on a last place team that will be battling for the #1 overall pick again this year.

As I've said before, I hope they change this in the next collective bargaining agreement.

Just because we don't agree with it, doesn't mean we don't understand it.  Its not like its some difficult concept to grasp.

I could easily say, why don't you understand that most pitchers only have so many pitches in their arms before you see issues arise, so why not have those pitches thrown up here?  Of course you know that but there is more to it than that.

Also, I am a game the service time person much more than CoC but at some point, you have to bring these guys up.  By the definition everyone uses, why is Mountcastle still not in AAA?  He's not there because he was ready to come up and you don't leave players in the minors when they are ready to come up.  The whole point in having a MiL system is to bring up players that help you win ML games.  That's why these players exist.  When that time has come, you don't sit back and wait so you can save a few dollars later.

The biggest thing for me is wanting to win and wanting to win soon.  These guys can get up here now and learn and be ready to really take off when this team is really ready to contend.  Having these guys break in at the time you expect to contend is likely pushing back that contention window.  Getting them up now and learning is a good thing.

Plus, if it were me, I would be signing a lot of these guys to long term deals immediately, so this service time bs wouldn't matter.  The Orioles have that ability to do that.  

[Aristotelian]

35 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

If you think he's absolutely correct maybe you can tell me what he means or give some examples?

I mean Elias is correct in maximizing service time of top prospects.

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Aristotelian said:

I mean Elias is correct in maximizing service time of top prospects.

But how are you defining that?  When have they reached the level of maximizing their service time?  Are you just going to wait around until we are contenders?  

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Aristotelian said:

I mean Elias is correct in maximizing service time of top prospects.

Oh, you meant the other comment.

Yea, I've never tried to argue that Elias isn't acting in the team's best interest.

I'm working under the assumption that both side aren't willing to agree to a long term deal.

[connja]

Bumping this thread.  Obviously Tyler has been impressive and exceeded st expectations.  But prior to this year he has been a starter his entire career.  Going into 2022, I would love to see  them stretch him out and put him in the rotation.  
 

they can always move him back to the pen if it doesn't work out but we want this guy pitching as many innings as possible. 

[Sports Guy]

I don’t think they do it. 
 

I noticed Roch was talking about the pen for next year and he mentioned Wells.  For all the flack he takes, Roch is plugged in.  He has sources inside the organization.

Now perhaps he is just making an assumption and has no basis on it but I don’t think there is any indication that they will make him a starter.  I think I would but I also already would have done it and they chose not to.

[Aristotelian]

High leverage relievers have value and we have holes in our bullpen. If we can turn a free Rule 5 guy into a future closer I'm good with that. Could be they want to play it safe with his arm coming off TJ. 

[Il BuonO]

2 hours ago, Aristotelian said:

High leverage relievers have value and we have holes in our bullpen. If we can turn a free Rule 5 guy into a future closer I'm good with that. Could be they want to play it safe with his arm coming off TJ. 

They do, but relievers are largely fungible. The glaring need on this team is starting pitching. And the ones who can do it have much more value than relievers. 

Wells has always been a starter and can be moved back into a relief role if it doesn’t work out. Most relievers are failed starters anyway, but they haven’t found out if Wells will fail as a starter. 

I don’t get the feeling they’ll try it, though.

[connja]

A high impact starter will throw twice as many innings as a high impact reliever.  For a team trying till up innings, seems to me using your best pitchers in the rotation is the way to go.