Rutschman/Mussina

[NJOriolesFan]

I didn't realize until I was at the Baysox game yesterday that Rutschman wears #35 with Bowie.  I know uniform # doesn't mean much with minor leaguers but is this a number that Rutschman selected and would like to wear with the Orioles?

This led me to thinking, since Mussina is in the HOF, 2nd best pitcher in Orioles history behind Palmer, better as an Oriole than a Yankee, does Mussina deserve to have his O's # retired?  I would say yes.  And that would put an end to any chance that Rutschman wears #35 with the O's.

Thoughts?

[Tony-OH]

No, no..no..no.  and no some more.

I hope Rutschman comes up and wears #35 and then has his number retired! 

That would be the best case scenario.

Without getting into everything with Mu$$ina, he's a Yankee. Any legacy Mu$$ina ever was about to have with the Orioles was destroyed the moment he became the first Orioles ever to be drafted, developed and starred with the team to sign with the Yankees in his prime. 

Mu$$ina never wanted the pressure of being a number one pitcher. It's didn't fit his personality and being a 3rd/4th starter on loaded Yankees teams was a lot easier and they paid him well on top of it all.

His legacy will be as a very good pitcher who split his time with two organizations, one of which was the Orioles. He belongs in the Orioles HoF because of what he accomplished on the field as an Oriole, but retired numbers are for the absolute greats that not only performed at a HoF level while with the Orioles, but who helped win World Series. 

 

[Sports Guy]

Good argument that he was the best pitcher in Os history.  (The argument is based around peak/numbers as an Oriole..obvious Palmer is more accomplished and probably still gets the nod but I think it’s closer than Os fans want to admit)
 

That said, I don’t think he should have his number retired because he did leave.  It was PA’s fault but he still left. 
 

I wouldn’t hate if they retired his number but I don’t feel it needs to happen either.

[Frobby]

I don’t feel the way Tony does about Mussina, but I also would not retire his number.  He’s in the Orioles Hall of Fame, and that’s enough.  
 

Twelve people have worn that number over the years since Mussina left: 

Adam Plutko (2021)

Dwight Smith Jr. (2019-2020)

Brad Brach (2014-2018)

Danny Valencia (2013)

Bill Hall (2012)

Omar Quintanilla (2012)

Brad Bergesen (2009-2011)

Greg Aquino (2008)

Daniel Cabrera (2004-2007)

Rick Helling (2003)

Matt Riley (2003)

Josh Towers (2001-2002)

Before Mussina, Mike Cuellar and Wally Bunker (among others) also wore no. 35.

[Frobby]

It occurs to me that 35 has to easily be the winningest pitcher uniform number for the O’s.    You’ve got Mussina at 147 and Cuellar at 143, Cabrera at 48, Bunker at 44, Brach at 27 — that’s 409 right there and I’m leaving out a lot of other guys.   22 can’t possibly compete despite Palmer having 269 by himself, since nobody’s worn it since 1984.    

[Redskins Rick]

Tony I love and respect the hell out of you, with just about everything except for your take on Mussina. 

I know you have more behind the scenes, and that all well and good.

I wont even go as far as to say you are wrong.

Difference of opinion and thats all it is.

Mussina is in MLB HOF and deserves his # to be retired.

To me, I burn Angelos at the stake for creating such a foul air with the team.

Davy did back to back deep playoff runs, only to he chased out of town, like a loser.

 

[interloper]

I think you should have to specifically go into the Hall as an Oriole to get your number retired here. Simple! 

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Redskins Rick said:

Tony I love and respect the hell out of you, with just about everything except for your take on Mussina. 

I know you have more behind the scenes, and that all well and good.

I wont even go as far as to say you are wrong.

Difference of opinion and thats all it is.

Mussina is in MLB HOF and deserves his # to be retired.

To me, I burn Angelos at the stake for creating such a foul air with the team.

Davy did back to back deep playoff runs, only to he chased out of town, like a loser.

 

Its ok, I have and will always have strong feelings abut Mu$$ina. I also can remember stories his brother used to tell about him back in the day about how much of a selfish ahole he was so that may have always swayed my opinion as well. I'm sure Mu$$ina has grown and matured and I dont hold any ill will feelings towards him as a person, but he's a guy who gave up an opportunity to leave a legacy.

Not many players have that opportunity and he gave it up to become another nameless Yankees far behind the Yankees greats. MuSSina never cared about his legacy because a legacy is based upon what others think of you and Mu$$ina never cared about the fans one bit. It was always about himself and was to the very end when he hung around just long enough to win 20 games and retire.

I know fans love him because they remember those big games he won and yes, I have found memories of some great starts by him particularly in that Seattle series, but the Oriole fan in me will never forgive him because I truly believe him leaving is what started the Orioles circling of the drain to baseball obscurity.

Now don't get me wrong, Angelos' ownership is the primary reason, but I always wonder had Mu$$ina signed that contract that he was offered in the end, the one that offered him the same amount of money to leave, would the Orioles have still sucked? Maybe. But we would have had another Orioles legend and he would have rightfully taken his spot amongst the Orioles greats and had his number retired. 

Instead he's just a random Yankees pitcher who will never be remember amongst the greats by Yankees fans. Which honestly is probably more fitting for him.

[Redskins Rick]

6 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Its ok, I have and will always have strong feelings abut Mu$$ina. I also can remember stories his brother used to tell about him back in the day about how much of a selfish ahole he was so that may have always swayed my opinion as well. I'm sure Mu$$ina has grown and matured and I dont hold any ill will feelings towards him as a person, but he's a guy who gave up an opportunity to leave a legacy.

Not many players have that opportunity and he gave it up to become another nameless Yankees far behind the Yankees greats. MuSSina never cared about his legacy because a legacy is based upon what others think of you and Mu$$ina never cared about the fans one bit. It was always about himself and was to the very end when he hung around just long enough to win 20 games and retire.

I know fans love him because they remember those big games he won and yes, I have found memories of some great starts by him particularly in that Seattle series, but the Oriole fan in me will never forgive him because I truly believe him leaving is what started the Orioles circling of the drain to baseball obscurity.

Now don't get me wrong, Angelos' ownership is the primary reason, but I always wonder had Mu$$ina signed that contract that he was offered in the end, the one that offered him the same amount of money to leave, would the Orioles have still sucked? Maybe. But we would have had another Orioles legend and he would have rightfully taken his spot amongst the Orioles greats and had his number retired. 

Instead he's just a random Yankees pitcher who will never be remember amongst the greats by Yankees fans. Which honestly is probably more fitting for him.

You make several valid points.

But, as a player, you play the game, ultimately you want to provide for your family and most really want to earn that converted WS trophy.

None of which would happen, even he had stayed with the Orioles. 

After 97, it was all downhill, until Andy was hired then, Buck and then DD.

They had a good 5 year run, and now we are back to being the butt stock of the MLB.

[Yossarian]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

I don’t feel the way Tony does about Mussina, but I also would not retire his number.  He’s in the Orioles Hall of Fame, and that’s enough.  
 

Twelve people have worn that number over the years since Mussina left: 

Adam Plutko (2021)

Dwight Smith Jr. (2019-2020)

Brad Brach (2014-2018)

Danny Valencia (2013)

Bill Hall (2012)

Omar Quintanilla (2012)

Brad Bergesen (2009-2011)

Greg Aquino (2008)

Daniel Cabrera (2004-2007)

Rick Helling (2003)

Matt Riley (2003)

Josh Towers (2001-2002)

Before Mussina, Mike Cuellar and Wally Bunker (among others) also wore no. 35.

Now there's a Who's Who list of forgettable players that came through Baltimore.

[Philip]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

No, no..no..no.  and no some more.

I hope Rutschman comes up and wears #35 and then has his number retired! 

That would be the best case scenario.

Without getting into everything with Mu$$ina, he's a Yankee. Any legacy Mu$$ina ever was about to have with the Orioles was destroyed the moment he became the first Orioles ever to be drafted, developed and starred with the team to sign with the Yankees in his prime. 

Mu$$ina never wanted the pressure of being a number one pitcher. It's didn't fit his personality and being a 3rd/4th starter on loaded Yankees teams was a lot easier and they paid him well on top of it all.

His legacy will be as a very good pitcher who split his time with two organizations, one of which was the Orioles. He belongs in the Orioles HoF because of what he accomplished on the field as an Oriole, but retired numbers are for the absolute greats that not only performed at a HoF level while with the Orioles, but who helped win World Series. 

 

Agree 100%, plus, when he himself was asked, he did not commit. That means he’s just, “for sale”

[TonySoprano]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

I don’t feel the way Tony does about Mussina, but I also would not retire his number.  He’s in the Orioles Hall of Fame, and that’s enough.  
 

Twelve people have worn that number over the years since Mussina left: 

Adam Plutko (2021)

Dwight Smith Jr. (2019-2020)

Brad Brach (2014-2018)

Danny Valencia (2013)

Bill Hall (2012)

Omar Quintanilla (2012)

Brad Bergesen (2009-2011)

Greg Aquino (2008)

Daniel Cabrera (2004-2007)

Rick Helling (2003)

Matt Riley (2003)

Josh Towers (2001-2002)

Before Mussina, Mike Cuellar and Wally Bunker (among others) also wore no. 35.

Josh Towers was a flippin' 15th round draft pick. They couldn't wait to give that number away, which I find petty.  Why?  Look at all he did for the organization while he was here.   For example, other than Billy Ripken wearing #7 briefly as a tribute to his dad in '88, that number has been unofficially retired by the team since Belanger last wore 30 years ago it in '81.  Moose could have had that quiet honor, even for a little while.   Now, 21 years later, too much water under the bridge, so let Rutschman have it if he chooses.

I'm not going to rehash the old history again, but Moose leaving is all on Big Pete.  Wren had a cheaper deal agreed to with Moose's agent and it died on Peter's desk.  Tony and I will never see eye to eye on this, and that's fine. 

 

[Sports Guy]

15 minutes ago, TonySoprano said:

Josh Towers was a flippin' 15th round draft pick. They couldn't wait to give that number away, which I find petty.  Why?  Look at all he did for the organization while he was here.   For example, other than Billy Ripken wearing #7 briefly as a tribute to his dad in '88, that number has been unofficially retired by the team since Belanger last wore 30 years ago it in '81.  Moose could have had that quiet honor, even for a little while.   Now, 21 years later, too much water under the bridge, so let Rutschman have it if he chooses.

I'm not going to rehash the old history again, but Moose leaving is all on Big Pete.  Wren had a cheaper deal agreed to with Moose's agent and it died on Peter's desk.  Tony and I will never see eye to eye on this, and that's fine. 

 

Well said…completely all on PA.  
 

[wildcard]

I am with Tony on this.  Every Oriole that has had his number retired was part of a World Series team as an Oriole.   To retire Mussina's number lowers that bar.  I see no reason for it.

Mussina belongs in the O's HOF.  He deserves respect for being in the MLB HOF.   But he never led the O's to the WS.   Keep his number active.

 

[Frobby]

8 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I am with Tony on this.  Every Oriole that has had his number retired was part of a World Series team as an Oriole.   To retire Mussina's number lowers that bar.  I see no reason for it.

Mussina belongs in the O's HOF.  He deserves respect for being in the MLB HOF.   But he never led the O's to the WS.   Keep his number active.

 

So let’s say we eventually have some other Hall of Famer who plays most or all of his career here but the O’s never win a WS while he’s here.   Would you not retire his number because of that?

I’m fine with not retiring Mussina’s number, but it’s not his fault the O’s never won a WS with him.   The guy was absolutely brilliant in the 1997 playoffs but the team couldn’t pull it off, for completely unrelated reasons.