Olney on O’s losing

[DrungoHazewood]

16 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I have long said that if the Orioles win the World Series in 5 games, there will be people on here upset that it wasn't done in 4.

Maybe we'll get to find out if that theory is correct this year.

 

[Too Tall]

Why are we even having this discussion on this day? My God, can't we just enjoy this moment instead of debateing how we got here.

OK, I'll play. You could say we tanked without really trying in 2018 before Elias. We were bad even with a payroll, Buck, and some star players. Elias arrived in 12/18 to a bare pantry and hardly any time to get ready for 2019. 2019 WAS bad. 2020 was a COVID year and we didn't even finish last. 2021 WAS bad. 2022 we ALMOST made the post season. 2023 - NOW look at us. 

Tanking!!!!!???? The Saint Louis Browns were a TANK. I started with a real bad 1954 Orioles team. It took 12 years to get to the American League Championship/best American League record /World Series. No playoffs then. Twelve years of building. Elias has gotten us to the best American League record in four. And, our top farm team ain't bad either. And, THIS COULD BE JUST THE BEGINNING! That's building folks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ChipTait]

Can we at least extend Kevin Brown?  

[DrungoHazewood]

7 minutes ago, ChipTait said:

Can we at least extend Kevin Brown?  

He signed with the Marlins a looooong time ago.

[Moose Milligan]

30 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

 

Exactly.  Exactly.

[Roll Tide]

On 8/10/2021 at 7:29 AM, waroriole said:

I feel like Elias has 1 more year before he gets a President of Operations boss. Someone like Duquette to inject some urgency. 

If I’m Elias I’m not letting them inject anyone over top of me. He would have no trouble finding a new gig at the highest level. 
 

Hopefully Angelos with this deal will give him a budget that allows him to lockdown guys as he sees fit. I’m not implying an open check book or crazy amount. Certainly won’t preclude the tough choices like watching Santander be dealt, Adley decision, and extending Gunnar, Bradish, and Rodriguez. 

[Moose Milligan]

33 minutes ago, Too Tall said:

Why are we even having this discussion on this day? My God, can't we just enjoy this moment instead of debateing how we got here.

 

You're still kinda new here.

[Too Tall]

2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

You're still kinda new here.

Thanks Moose! I haven't been called "new" in like 80 years!

[DrungoHazewood]

Just now, Moose Milligan said:

You're still kinda new here.

Yea, he needs to search the archives for "how the 2012-2016 era seemed fun at the time but was actually hugely counterproductive and we should have burned everything to the ground in 2011."

[Aristotelian]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Yea clearly..I mean, Holliday, Cowser and Kjerstad were difference makers on this team!

They will be difference makers on the '24-'27+ teams. I'd rather have them in the system than to have been "less under .500" in '21-'22. 

[Sports Guy]

7 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

They will be difference makers on the '24-'27+ teams. I'd rather have them in the system than to have been "less under .500" in '21-'22. 

I’m glad we have them…Kjerstad was from a year where tanking was fine although Kjerstad was perhaps a guy we get if we pick 8th.

But we could have won more for the Cowser draft and ended up with Frelick, McClain, Williams or Ford..all who could be as good or better players than Cowser.

[waroriole]

1 hour ago, Roll Tide said:

If I’m Elias I’m not letting them inject anyone over top of me. He would have no trouble finding a new gig at the highest level. 
 

Hopefully Angelos with this deal will give him a budget that allows him to lockdown guys as he sees fit. I’m not implying an open check book or crazy amount. Certainly won’t preclude the tough choices like watching Santander be dealt, Adley decision, and extending Gunnar, Bradish, and Rodriguez. 

You realize that’s from more than two years ago right?

[ThomasTomasz]

1 hour ago, Too Tall said:

Why are we even having this discussion on this day? My God, can't we just enjoy this moment instead of debateing how we got here.

OK, I'll play. You could say we tanked without really trying in 2018 before Elias. We were bad even with a payroll, Buck, and some star players. Elias arrived in 12/18 to a bare pantry and hardly any time to get ready for 2019. 2019 WAS bad. 2020 was a COVID year and we didn't even finish last. 2021 WAS bad. 2022 we ALMOST made the post season. 2023 - NOW look at us. 

Tanking!!!!!???? The Saint Louis Browns were a TANK. I started with a real bad 1954 Orioles team. It took 12 years to get to the American League Championship/best American League record /World Series. No playoffs then. Twelve years of building. Elias has gotten us to the best American League record in four. And, our top farm team ain't bad either. And, THIS COULD BE JUST THE BEGINNING! That's building folks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would argue that Peter Angelos had a flawed way of looking at things.  He spent the lions share of his money on MLB payroll.  Our analytics department pre-Elias was the smallest in the league.  Dan Duquette came in saying he was giving the front office a mandate to increase their presence internationally, which only happened with MLB signings and scant few J2 players, as Peter did not agree with giving most players that age that kind of money.  Our development pipeline was one of the worst in MLB, with most of the coaches/instructors biggest claims to fame being part of the “Oriole Way” and not based on merit or being the best person for the job.  

Elias did tank, but that is because the Orioles needed to change how they operated.  The development pipeline, which hadn’t developed a top of rotation pitcher in the past 30 years except Mike Mussina and Erik Bedard (loosely defined) needed to be gutted and rebuilt, which Elias did.  We needed to focus on J2 international signings.  We finally built the DSL facility that Duquette promised but never came through with, and we’re just starting to see the fruits of those prospects with Basallo leading the charge.  Our analytics department?  Amazing what hiring a rocket scientist and adding employees will do.  

For far too long, the Orioles let other players get away and have success elsewhere.  Jake Arrieta is one who would’ve made a huge difference in our last period of competitiveness.  We let players like Jose Bautista and Justin Turner play through here and not unlock things.  Now, we’re the team fixing those castoffs like Aaron Hicks and Ryan O’Hearn instead of being the team that those guys come from.  

Oh, and remember the history of not developing TORPs?  It appears that we might have two of them in Bradish and Grayson.  In the second half of the season, the top three starters in ERA were Bradish, Grayson and Gerrit Cole in that order.  

All of the infrastructure changes and front office changes needed to happen.  This team under Peter’s various coaches and GMs was mostly stuck in the 1980’s-90’s as far as coaching and development went.  You also can’t ignore J2, where at least 20-25% of current MLB players are coming from.  John, for all his faults, recognized this needed to change and he had to get out of the way of who he brought in to fix it.  John needs to pony up the cash to keep our players and make smart additions to the core, but so far, this has been done right to fix what was wrong and sustain success far beyond a 4 year window.  

[Can_of_corn]

10 minutes ago, ThomasTomasz said:

 

Elias did tank, but that is because the Orioles needed to change how they operated. 

  We finally built the DSL facility that Duquette promised but never came through with, and we’re just starting to see the fruits of those prospects with Basallo leading the charge. 

For far too long, the Orioles let other players get away and have success elsewhere.  Jake Arrieta is one who would’ve made a huge difference in our last period of competitiveness.  We let players like Jose Bautista and Justin Turner play through here and not unlock things.

 

The question is how long.  And you are kidding yourself if you don't think gutting payroll to increase profitability wasn't a core reason for the tank.

Is the DSL facility completed?  I've not heard that it is.  Basallo has nothing to do with the new facility.

The have still lost guys under Elias, Tanner Scott and Yaz for example.  It's part of the game.  I'm not mad about it but don't pretend Elias is immune.

[btdart20]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

I’m glad we have them…Kjerstad was from a year where tanking was fine although Kjerstad was perhaps a guy we get if we pick 8th.

But we could have won more for the Cowser draft and ended up with Frelick, McClain, Williams or Ford..all who could be as good or better players than Cowser.

I know you're familiar with the slot values, but need to add it for context of the readers.  Kjerstad and other good options might have been there later, sure.  But a low pick comes with lower slot values too.  And less flexibility with under/overslot picks that have been pretty good to Elias/Ciolek over the years.