The Marauding Delmarva Offense

[Frobby]

13 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Yep.  Call it the Brooks Robinson model.

As I've explained before, I think the O's are going to have to do something really out of the box to break out.  Some high risk bets are going to have to pay off.

Look at the Blue Jays.  You see their young hitters?  You see the season Robbie Ray is having?  You see where they are in fourth place?

Doing what the Astros did isn't going to get it done (IMO).

So if Vladdy, Bo and Cavan were all signed to long term deals, would the Jays not be in fourth place?    

I’d be fine with offering some long term deals but I’m not sure I see the connection.  
 

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

So if Vladdy, Bo and Cavan were all signed to long term deals, would the Jays not be in fourth place?    

I’d be fine with offering some long term deals but I’m not sure I see the connection.  
 

I was using them as an example of how difficult a position the O's are in and how, I think, they are going to have to do something out of the box to have any chance.

My really out of the box idea is to sign kids who aren't currently ready for the majors to very team friendly long term deals with the idea that learning in the majors will benefit their career over the long term while saving the team money for other moves.

Does that approach have the potential to be a disaster?  Yep.

But I don't think running the Astros model a decade later is going to get it done.

 

 

[Frobby]

10 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I was using them as an example of how difficult a position the O's are in and how, I think, they are going to have to do something out of the box to have any chance.

My really out of the box idea is to sign kids who aren't currently ready for the majors to very team friendly long term deals with the idea that learning in the majors will benefit their career over the long term while saving the team money for other moves.

Does that approach have the potential to be a disaster?  Yep.

But I don't think running the Astros model a decade later is going to get it done.

 

 

Seems to me that if this strategy works it benefits the team like 5-7 years from now, when those players would have been in the late stages of Arb eligibility/first years of FA eligibility.   It doesn’t really help in the short-to-medium run, except maybe to make budget planning a bit more predictable.   

[Sports Guy]

Every model has a chance for disaster.

7-10 years ago, the idea of openers would be laughed at.  Things change.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Seems to me that if this strategy works it benefits the team like 5-7 years from now, when those players would have been in the late stages of Arb eligibility/first years of FA eligibility.   It doesn’t really help in the short-to-medium run, except maybe to make budget planning a bit more predictable.   

I'm working under the idea that, let's say Henderson since he's already been mentioned, would be a superior player in 2023 if he spent 2021-2022 in the majors instead of toiling in the minors and having his ML debut in 2023.  Same with 2024 and his overall career would be more productive.

[Frobby]

8 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm working under the idea that, let's say Henderson since he's already been mentioned, would be a superior player in 2023 if he spent 2021-2022 in the majors instead of toiling in the minors and having his ML debut in 2023.  Same with 2024 and his overall career would be more productive.

You’re probably the only one who thinks that.   The guy is having enough trouble at Aberdeen.   

[7Mo]

7 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm working under the idea that, let's say Henderson since he's already been mentioned, would be a superior player in 2023 if he spent 2021-2022 in the majors instead of toiling in the minors and having his ML debut in 2023.  Same with 2024 and his overall career would be more productive.

You're assuming Gunnar would take a deal that's substantially below market.

And then you'd back it up if it fails by saying Elias should have known better. You win either way.

I'm an advocate of signing guys early. But not in A+. That's just silly. And you seem to think the minors only exist to game service time. Players need to develop. 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

You’re probably the only one who thinks that.   The guy is having enough trouble at Aberdeen.   

In my defense I used him as an example before he was promoted to Aberdeen.

Obviously the team would have much better tools to weed out likely candidates. 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, 7Mo said:

You're assuming Gunnar would take a deal that's substantially below market.

And then you'd back it up if it fails by saying Elias should have known better. You win either way.

I'm an advocate of signing guys early. But not in A+. That's just silly. And you seem to think the minors only exist to game service time. Players need to develop. 

Yep.  I stated as much at the time.

I'm not faulting Elias for not doing something this drastic.

I've also never stated that the minors aren't good for developing most players. 

I don't think it's needed for advanced college bats. 

I don't think much is needed for some high end prospect HS players.

You never heard me say Adam Hall didn't need the minors.

[7Mo]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

I've also never stated that the minors aren't good for developing most players. 

I don't think it's needed for advanced college bats. 

I don't think much is needed for some high end prospect HS players.

There is not one major league team that agrees with you. 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, 7Mo said:

There is not one major league team that agrees with you. 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vaughan01.shtml

[RZNJ]

Under the current FA rules that model would be a disaster. As Frobby stated,  assuming they developed in the majors, they'd suck for 2-4 years, while they developed and then just as they got better they'd be approaching FA.  The Orioles were forced to play Brooks in the majors before he was ready under the bonus baby rules.  In the days of unlimited servitude to a team they eventually realized it was a terrible idea.  For all those who hate tanking, taking 4,5, or 6 players and having them develop in the majors years before they're ready is basically the same thing.  And lastly, there is no proof that the player will develop better, faster, or become a better player doing it that way.  Cal Ripken and Eddie Murray went through each level of the minors, debuted at 21, won rookie of the year, and became Hall of Famers.  Brooks Robinson was force fed at the ML at 18. He didn't have a full productive season until 23 or OPS over .800 until 25.   There's no way know which way is better but it appears that one man is an island.

[7Mo]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vaughan01.shtml

Nice. One outlier. There was much gnashing of teeth about how awful it was that this organization didn't take Austin Martin who was described as the most polished college bat in years. Where is he?

Spencer Torkelson was described as the best college bat in years. Where is he?

I can come up with another 50. 

[RZNJ]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vaughan01.shtml

Great. Then you'd suggest drafting all college players and make sure you get a top 3 pick every year.  How about linking us to Austin Martin's bbref page as well.  Of course,  I'm sure he'd be doing better if he was in the majors now.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, 7Mo said:

Nice. One outlier. There was much gnashing of teeth about how awful it was that this organization didn't take Austin Martin who was described as the most polished college bat in years. Where is he?

Spencer Torkelson was described as the best college bat in years. Where is he?

I can come up with another 50. 

What did you say again?

One major league team.

I gave you one team.

Now you move the goalpost.

Under the current CBA it's in the team's best interest to not promote these guys quickly unless they think they are contenders.

BTW Torkelson is in AAA.  What do you want to bet he's in the majors early next year?  (barring labor issues).  Is that early enough for you?