Orioles looking to trade Means?

[Philip]

1 hour ago, forphase1 said:

 I just don't see the value in spending significant money to gain a handful of largely meaningless games at the cost of less money to spend in the draft. 

The point is that you can win additional games without jeopardizing the future, and that is what the debate is about. It’s not an “either or” it’s “why not both?”

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, connja said:

Means for Bobby Witt and Asa Lacy.

They have Mondesi and Lopez for SS, and lots of young SP.  

Would you do it?

Lol…is this a parody post?  

[Tony-OH]

6 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Yea, that rotation is not good but I would rather see that than the collection of BS we had to watch in 2022.  

I would rather see: Stroman, Means, GRod, Pablo Lopez and Zimmerman/Akin/ et al and that rotation is very doable.

I don’t know what deal Stroman is going to get.  ERod got 5/77.  
 

Will Stroman, who is older, get the 5th year as well?  Maybe…he will certainly get a higher AAV.

I would offer 4/100.  See where things stand.  If teams are valuing closer to ERod money, ie 15-19M a year range, that type of offer could make really get his attention.  
 

It really wouldn’t be difficult to put together a very solid and exciting team in 2022 while also keeping your long term focus.

Do you really think Stroman will want to pitch here? Also, let's remember, Stroman is going to give up more runs in Camden Yards and against the Al East. Last year he allowed 17 home runs, and if he was pitching at Camden Yards it would have been 23. He's also a a sinker guy and you know Elias hates sinkerballers. 

I'm not thrilled that batters seemed to hit his sinker last year harder than in year's past. That's not a good sign for a pitcher entering his 30s.

H's also a little guy so how much more is left in that arm? You wanna give a 5-7 right-hander a $100 million dollars to pitch in age years 31-35?

Not a guy for me for 4 years.


 

[Philip]

27 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I think pretty much everyone on the board is on board with this. 

Then why is everybody yelling and screaming and throwing things and kicking the cat?

how ‘bout a chorus of “Kum buy ya”?

Or the baseball version,”Come Bat, yeah?”

Ill show myself out….

[interloper]

1 minute ago, Philip said:

 

The debate now is about where we are in the plan and whether the time has come to pivot from accumulating talent to accumulating victories: now or next season?

 

I think that's part of it, sure, but it seems like people are moving more and more toward just feeling like there IS no plan, which I don't understand. There has literally never been MORE of a plan than right now. 

[Philip]

1 minute ago, Tony-OH said:

Do you really think Stroman will want to pitch here? Also, let's remember, Stroman is going to give up more runs in Camden Yards and against the Al East. Last year he allowed 17 home runs, and if he was pitching at Camden Yards it would have been 23. He's also a a sinker guy and you know Elias hates sinkerballers. 

I'm not thrilled that batters seemed to hit his sinker last year harder than in year's past. That's not a good sign for a pitcher entering his 30s.

H's also a little guy so how much more is left in that arm? You wanna give a 5-7 right-hander a $100 million dollars to pitch in age years 31-35?

Not a guy for me for 4 years.


 

I don’t think we’re interested in him, but that would also be the reason not to bring back Zack Davies right?

[Tony-OH]

6 minutes ago, connja said:

Means for Bobby Witt and Asa Lacy.

They have Mondesi and Lopez for SS, and lots of young SP.  

Would you do it?

KC wouldn't do that deal ever. Means is not getting either of those guys.

[Aristotelian]

Just now, Philip said:

Then why is everybody yelling and screaming and throwing things and kicking the cat?

how ‘bout a chorus of “Kum buy ya”?

Or the baseball version,”Come Bat, yeah?”

Ill show myself out….

Certain people accentuate differences and like to argue for the sake of argument. To some extent it is human nature as well as the nature of message boards. 

[forphase1]

Just now, Philip said:

The point is that you can win additional games without jeopardizing the future, and that is what the debate is about. It’s not an “either or” it’s “why not both?”

Except you can't do both wining more games and keeping the high dollar amount of money to spend in the draft.  Going from having the first pick and 14 million to spend is very different than picking later and only having 10 million to spend.  That's 4 million that we can't then invest in young draft talent.  Yes, we can win additional games, but that will come at some cost of the draft pipeline.  And certainly there will be a time and a place for that to happen.  Just not sure we have the talent core to justify it being this year.  I watched approximately 80% of the Orioles games last year, I'd LOVE to see a better team in those games.  Just not sure that going from winning 52 games to 67-72 games is worth losing the top draft status.  A losing team is a losing team.

[sportsfan8703]

Means to a lot of teams makes sense but I think Means to the LAA is the first one that comes to mind given our history with them. 
 

What about Bachman, Bush, and Marceaux from the Angels?  Not the sexiest of trades for us, but we get three recent draftees with SP potential that can move quickly. 

[Sports Guy]

8 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Do you really think Stroman will want to pitch here? Also, let's remember, Stroman is going to give up more runs in Camden Yards and against the Al East. Last year he allowed 17 home runs, and if he was pitching at Camden Yards it would have been 23. He's also a a sinker guy and you know Elias hates sinkerballers. 

I'm not thrilled that batters seemed to hit his sinker last year harder than in year's past. That's not a good sign for a pitcher entering his 30s.

H's also a little guy so how much more is left in that arm? You wanna give a 5-7 right-hander a $100 million dollars to pitch in age years 31-35?

Not a guy for me for 4 years.


 

Why wouldn’t he want to pitch here if he gets paid enough?  That’s what it would boil down to.

He has already proven the height stigma to be a non issue for him, so I think that’s something we can throw out the window.

His walk rate is very good, he misses bats, gets a lot of ground balls, keeps the ball in the park at a good enough rate.  
 

He’s not great but he’s solid.  He’s a guy I that I would expect to average about 2.5 WAR through the life of the deal..so about 10 WAR the next 4 years.  Not “worth” 25M a year on average but close and good enough for a FA deal.

Plus, I think him being a vet guy is important and his teammates have always liked him.  He’s a cerebral guy and he has been very durable over his career.

[Tony-OH]

9 minutes ago, Philip said:

I don’t think we’re interested in him, but that would also be the reason not to bring back Zack Davies right?

I'd bring Davies back on the right one year deal, but again, I think he will find a better place to pitch to try and regain his value. Plus he's a sinkerballer. And we know Elias hates sinkerballers.

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

Except you can't do both wining more games and keeping the high dollar amount of money to spend in the draft.  Going from having the first pick and 14 million to spend is very different than picking later and only having 10 million to spend.  That's 4 million that we can't then invest in young draft talent.  Yes, we can win additional games, but that will come at some cost of the draft pipeline.  And certainly there will be a time and a place for that to happen.  Just not sure we have the talent core to justify it being this year.  I watched approximately 80% of the Orioles games last year, I'd LOVE to see a better team in those games.  Just not sure that going from winning 52 games to 67-72 games is worth losing the top draft status.  A losing team is a losing team.

You can’t just keep playing for high picks.  The purpose of sports is to win, not draft high every year.

[LookinUp]

I just want to go on record and say that I think asking the owner to spend another ~$40-$50 million to get to an almost competitive level is a very 2004 Orioles thing to do.

I think it's stupid. 

Elias' sole focus, IMO, should be in finding ways to get pitchers who can lead this staff for years to come. If that means trading Mullins and Means now, great. If that means extending Means, fine. 

This is not a team or a staff that's close to competing. Even in the rotation projections from earlier in this thread, you're not close to competing and you require maximum health because the guys behind them aren't that good.

We're not close. Not at all. 

[sportsfan8703]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

You can’t just keep playing for high picks.  The purpose of sports is to win, not draft high every year.

The 4 teams above us in our division won 91 games or more. I don’t think we had a choice. We were playing for high draft picks whether we spent $50 million or not. It was going to happen. Instead of 5th we’re picking #1.