O’s sign Jordan Lyles

[Frobby]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

They paid 7M for what they hope to be 170 or more innings.  That’s it.

End of the day, there really is no more analysis needed.  He’s not good, the innings probably won’t be quality ones but if he takes the ball every 5th day and gets you into the 6th inning and beyond most nights, that has value to a team that needs it badly.

Well, the issue is whether he really will get us into the 6th inning most nights.   That depends on how hard he’s getting hit, particularly when the middle innings roll around.  

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Frobby said:

Well, the issue is whether he really will get us into the 6th inning most nights.   That depends on how hard he’s getting hit, particularly when the middle innings roll around.  

Sure..but he did it in 2021 and got hit hard.

Now, will the differences of the parks and the division make a difference?  Who knows.  
 

I will say this..I have more confidence in him to give us over 150 IP of 5ish ERA ball than most of the young starters we saw last year.

[Sports Guy]

Make no mistake about it..this signing occurred because of the failure of those young starters.  You should never pay a guy any real money to give us what Lyles will.  You should be able to bring up MiL pitchers all day long that can come close to that but for 600k.

But they failed miserably as a group.

[Frobby]

10 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Make no mistake about it..this signing occurred because of the failure of those young starters.  You should never pay a guy any real money to give us what Lyles will.  You should be able to bring up MiL pitchers all day long that can come close to that but for 600k.

But they failed miserably as a group.

True.  I hope it goes better this year for those guys, and of course, for Grayson.   And Bradish.   

It’s amazing to me how Tampa never seems to have these hiccups.  They bring up a guy like Baz and he looks good right away.  Granted, he was a highly regarded prospect, but seems like even our better prospects never seem to debut smoothly.   
 

[UMDTerrapins]

My takeaway from Lyles and Odor is that Elias is no more committed to winning games in 2022 than he was in 2021. It also does nothing to lessen my concern that he while can build a system full of talent, does he know how to construct a roster and coaching staff that is playoff caliber? Obviously that’s not what these signings are about, but these are highly uninspired acquisitions. 

[Aristotelian]

1 minute ago, UMDTerrapins said:

My takeaway from Lyles and Odor is that Elias is no more committed to winning games in 2022 than he was in 2021. It also does nothing to lessen my concern that he while can build a system full of talent, does he know how to construct a roster and coaching staff that is playoff caliber? Obviously that’s not what these signings are about, but these are highly uninspired acquisitions. 

It's discouraging that he does not seem to think the timing is right to get more competitive. That has nothing to do with whether he knows how to do it. I am pretty sure he does not think Odor and Lyles are getting us to the playoffs.  

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

It's discouraging that he does not seem to think the timing is right to get more competitive. That has nothing to do with whether he knows how to do it. I am pretty sure he does not think Odor and Lyles are getting us to the playoffs.  

But it’s the thought process behind the moves.  That’s the disturbing thing.

He is paying 2 very bad players to have prominent roles on the team in 2022.  That should never be the case.  

[wildcard]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

Means gave Holt some credit with his changeup, but other than that, who has Holt made better and why do you think he's some magic wand for pitchers? I don't dislike Holt as a coordinator, but I see very little that he has improved to make me think he's a difference maker for a 31 year old pitcher.

Holt has some pluses and some minuses.

Pluses: Helped Means become who he is today.  A lot of that was Means himself.  Changed Lopez delivery and while he is not an effective starter to me he may be an effective reliever.   Brought Tyler Wells along nicely.    I think Holt communicates well, knows a lot about analytics and how to apply them to his pitchers.  I have read some good things about how Holt helped minor leaguers. I think Rom was one of them.

Minuses:   Biggest was I think he rushed a lot of the young starters last year by  calling up before they had much time at AAA.  He seem to have thought the alternate site  work was equal to AAA and it proved not to be. That call might have been him but it might have been Elias.    Also he left the team for a month last year.  I think that hurt some of the young pitchers.

Why do I think he can help Lyles?   I don't evaluate any of the time with the Rockies because its the worse place to pitch.  I don't think the Pirates or the Ranger have good pitching programs.   Chris Hook with the Brewers is a good coach and Lyles did well there.   His numbers were probably a little lucky but even raising them some he would still have done well there.

From Baseball Savant Lyles appears to have been effective with difference pitches at different time.  But at least he has show effectiveness.  I think Holt can put him through his analytic evaluation program and help Lyles understand how to use his pitches better.  Maybe even stop throwing certain pitches.   I think Holt may be able to help Lyles recreate 2019 with the Brewers.  We will see.

 

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

It's discouraging that he does not seem to think the timing is right to get more competitive. That has nothing to do with whether he knows how to do it. I am pretty sure he does not think Odor and Lyles are getting us to the playoffs.  

The Lyles move concerns me more than Odor, because it feels like we are spending money just to say we spent it.  We probably could have gotten a similar pitcher in February for considerably less money.   $7 mm should buy someone better.   Of course, getting pitchers to come to Baltimore right now isn’t easy.   

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

2 hours ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Roch is hilarious. I can’t blame the guy for doing what it takes to go to work, but he really is basically Jim Hunter, and that’s not meant to be disrespectful. 

I like Roch and regularly read his articles. You just have to remember he’s a PR person for the Orioles and not a journalist who will criticize the team when warranted. 

[Aristotelian]

14 minutes ago, Frobby said:

The Lyles move concerns me more than Odor, because it feels like we are spending money just to say we spent it.  We probably could have gotten a similar pitcher in February for considerably less money.   $7 mm should buy someone better.   Of course, getting pitchers to come to Baltimore right now isn’t easy.   

Agreed on Lyles, I don't like it on any level. I just don't think it's fair to even begin assessing his ability to put together a competitive roster since that's clearly not what he's doing right now. 

[Sports Guy]

18 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Holt has some pluses and some minuses.

Pluses: Helped Means become who he is today.  A lot of that was Means himself.  Changed Lopez delivery and while he is not an effective starter to me he may be an effective reliever.   Brought Tyler Wells along nicely.    I think Holt communicates well, knows a lot about analytics and how to apply them to his pitchers.  I have read some good things about how Holt helped minor leaguers. I think Rom was one of them.

Minuses:   Biggest was I think he rushed a lot of the young starters last year by  calling up before they had much time at AAA.  He seem to have thought the alternate site  work was equal to AAA and it proved not to be. That call might have been him but it might have been Elias.    Also he left the team for a month last year.  I think that hurt some of the young pitchers.

Why do I think he can help Lyles?   I don't evaluate any of the time with the Rockies because its the worse place to pitch.  I don't think the Pirates or the Ranger have good pitching programs.   Chris Hook with the Brewers is a good coach and Lyles did well there.   His numbers were probably a little lucky but even raising them some he would still have done well there.

From Baseball Savant Lyles appears to have been effective with difference pitches at different time.  But at least he has show effectiveness.  I think Holt can put him through his analytic evaluation program and help Lyles understand how to use his pitches better.  Maybe even stop throwing certain pitches.   I think Holt may be able to help Lyles recreate 2019 with the Brewers.  We will see.

 

So basically, Holt does the same things most pitching coaches do.  
 

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Aristotelian said:

Agreed on Lyles, I don't like it on any level. I just don't think it's fair to even begin assessing his ability to put together a competitive roster since that's clearly not what he's doing right now. 

Of course it’s fair.  He could get better players.  He could do more than he is doing even without ownership being involved.

[Finisher]

Guys, his spin rate is good so results don't matter.

[NCRaven]

I'm in agreement with Sports Guy here.  Lyles fills a need for a team with only one pitcher, Means, that has proven capable of going past 5 innings in a game.  He's not a long-term answer or a "nugget."  But, he can help until better pitchers arrive through the farm - Rodriguez and Hall - or by trade.  As to Odor, I don't think he's promised any role beyond a tryout in spring training and a chance to push Matteo and Urias.