How does Elias build a playoff quality pitching staff?

[Just Regular]

Don't forget defense - OAA thinks the Rays beat the Orioles by 53 runs of OAA in 2021, and 134 runs for the 2016-2021 entire period on Savant as of this morning.

The Blue Jays and Orioles are 30+ runs worse than all 28 other clubs over the long haul; I feel in Rutschman and Mullins we'll be plus up that half of the middle soon and our infielders will be young, so maybe there's an avenue for closing the gap on Toronto's Bats and Arms.

[Frobby]

24 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Btw, I think the single most overlooked thing on this site, in terms of building the team, is the bullpen.  
 

This organization has got to figure out how to build a real bullpen again.  They did it before but it’s been largely few and far between for 25 years.  

I feel like we have a few young guys who will make good bullpen pieces if they don’t pan out as starters.   I think 2022 will be an interesting year in that regard.

You look at 2012-16, our two main closers (Jim Johnson and Zach Britton) were converted starters.   O’Day was a waiver pickup, Brach a low profile trade, Givens a converted SS.  Not only very good results for that crew, but not very expensive either.   I’d like to think we could replicate that.
 

[Can_of_corn]

36 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Btw, I think the single most overlooked thing on this site, in terms of building the team, is the bullpen.  
 

This organization has got to figure out how to build a real bullpen again.  They did it before but it’s been largely few and far between for 25 years.  

I think it is very hard to build a real bullpen when you have no length or consistency out of your starting rotation. 

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I feel like we have a few young guys who will make good bullpen pieces if they don’t pan out as starters.   I think 2022 will be an interesting year in that regard.

You look at 2012-16, our two main closers (Jim Johnson and Zach Britton) were converted starters.   O’Day was a waiver pickup, Brach a low profile trade, Givens a converted SS.  Not only very good results for that crew, but not very expensive either.   I’d like to think we could replicate that.
 

This is an assumption that is consistently made…good arms, starting pitchers but likely end up in the pen.

We write them in the pen, assume they will be fine and then move on.

How is that working out for a guy like Tate?  He’s just not good but he should be.
 

I like the potential of our future arms for a pen (I actually like it more than a rotation, although that’s not saying much) but they still need to do it and we still need to develop them In that role.

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

I think it is very hard to build a real bullpen when you have no length or consistency out of your starting rotation. 

Is this really the case anymore?  So many teams are only getting 4-5 innings out of their starters as it is.  

[Frobby]

20 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

This is an assumption that is consistently made…good arms, starting pitchers but likely end up in the pen.

We write them in the pen, assume they will be fine and then move on.

How is that working out for a guy like Tate?  He’s just not good but he should be.
 

I like the potential of our future arms for a pen (I actually like it more than a rotation, although that’s not saying much) but they still need to do it and we still need to develop them In that role.

I agree that you can’t assume failed starters will succeed in the bullpen.   Some do, some don’t.   But I do think several of the guys we have now who are starters have a better MiL track record than Tate, and should be better out of the pen than Tate is if they get moved there.  And IMO, Tate is mediocre, not horrible.  

[Oriole1940]

Baseball is, and has changed from when I grew up with it, where unless a Pitcher threw several CG per season, he was not considered much of a Starter, to  lets see if we can get 3 or 4 Pitchers to go, 3 or 4 innings  This is not withstanding Means CG last year, followed by him immediately going on the DL.  So, one would think it would be easier to find todays kind of Pitchers, than yesterdays. Oftimes it does not appear that is the case, though. as was said above, Luck still plays a big role, esp. in the area of Pitchers injuries and durability.  If that is truly the case, we are due for a whale of an amount of Good Luck vs the other kind.  .  

[Chuck A]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Is this really the case anymore?  So many teams are only getting 4-5 innings out of their starters as it is.  

This is also the reason that almost all teams are carrying 13 pitchers.  Yes I remember the 9-10 pitchers on a 25 man roster days.  I feel old now.

[Frobby]

Take a look at the 1972 Orioles.  They only used 11 pitchers the entire season, and one of those only pitched in three September games.    We literally use more pitchers than that in a week now.  

[OriolesMagic83]

5 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't think they have any cash hoarded.

Yeah they do, its just hoarded in the Angelos' brothers bank account.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, OriolesMagic83 said:

Yeah they do, its just hoarded in the Angelos' brothers bank account.

You don't think it's been spent?

[OriolesMagic83]

5 hours ago, LookinUp said:

The actual answer to your question is to build a player development system that's as good as the Rays so we can put in 20 interchangeable arms at any point in a game and still be competitive enough to win games with a decent offense.

If anyone's thinking that we're going to have a rotation like the 2012/2013 Tigers, I think you're fooling yourself. We may grow a stud or two, may trade for a stud or two, but this is not a team that's going to win with four 200 IP guys and a couple of bullpen aces.

I don't think a pitching staff with aces is even a priority anymore.  Yeah, of course a team would like ace starters, but how many teams can afford 1 $30-35 mill/year starter, much less 2.  The Mets starting pitching looks great on paper, but about if/when one of DeGrom/Scherzer gets injured? 

[Frobby]

5 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't think they have any cash hoarded.

 

2 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

Yeah they do, its just hoarded in the Angelos' brothers bank account.

 

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

You don't think it's been spent?

Who the hell knows?  We have zero idea how much has been distributed to the ownership group or what the group has done with any money received.   We can “think” whatever we want.   In reality, we have no information at all.  

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

 

 

Who the hell knows?  We have zero idea how much has been distributed to the ownership group or what the group has done with any money received.   We can “think” whatever we want.   In reality, we have no information at all.  

I agree, which is why I'm not in favor of speculating about sharp increases in payroll.

[Sports Guy]

5 hours ago, Just Regular said:

Don't forget defense - OAA thinks the Rays beat the Orioles by 53 runs of OAA in 2021, and 134 runs for the 2016-2021 entire period on Savant as of this morning.

The Blue Jays and Orioles are 30+ runs worse than all 28 other clubs over the long haul; I feel in Rutschman and Mullins we'll be plus up that half of the middle soon and our infielders will be young, so maybe there's an avenue for closing the gap on Toronto's Bats and Arms.

Very true although I think you are a bit optimistic on Mullins’ defense.  I also don’t think Adley defense helps all that much.  
 

I feel the OF defense overall should be fine…it’s just a matter of the IF defense.