Joc Pederson and the Number of the Beast

[NCRaven]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

He was showing the discrepancy.

I don't think he believes all teams should be over 200M.

Pederson is a player and member of the MLBPA.  I pretty sure he does believe something close to that.

[btdart20]

55 minutes ago, Just Regular said:

I agree with this...I think Pederson an interesting individual to make this particular kvetch as I imagine he hoped for more $$$ in an NL DH world, and those bottom teams peacing out on every decent ballplayer hampered his market.  He's like, I had my One Shining Moment in October and there are 15 extra DH jobs, and this is all I get?

I doubt seriously Joc Pederson is deeply concerned for my fandom of the guys with this color laundry.

Awesome writing, Moose!

I agree too.  He's venting about his pay.  Just like the rest of us do when we think we should be paid more.  And he's not the only player being vocal wanting owners to spend more.  But that's the end goal for the players.  Simply spending more. 

I don't really care how much a team spends unless it impacts the competitiveness of the game.  While the gap in team payrolls isn't the end of the story, but it represents a big gulf in talent.  Angelos and the O's have capacity to spend more, definitely.  But I'm not convinced spending $X million more annually would change the competitive landscape. 

Tangent - To put Joc's whining in context...  Joc has posted a negative WAR 3 out of his 8 seasons.  And netted -0.4 WAR the last two years.  I don't put much stock in 2020, but he's lucky he's paid $6M.  In 2021, he was paid $4.5M.  He got a 33% raise to $6M this year being a below average player.  

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

lol.  The disconnect is with people like you, not Elias.  You guys are the delusional ones.

Elias just has an ownership group that doesn’t care right now.

Btw, do you have a poster of Elias on your bedroom ceiling?

Maybe Elias has an ownership that doesn't care, I don't think any of us (or very very, very few of us) are arguing that. You keep railing in Elias when Wildcard gave a great synopsis of what Elias has done under his circumstances.

You and few others are dumping on Elias when I see what Wildcard sees when it comes from how he's built the foundation of the organization better. 

I truly think we are in purgatory until Peter Angelos passes away because the team won't be sold until that happens for financial reasons. The only hope (outside of the Peter Angelos passing) is with some improvements this year from some of the young players, as well as the arrival of some of the bigger prospects, that John Angelos will pay some next year. 

Railing on Elias like he's done nothing misses the point. You and a few others seems to think that those of us that appreciate the route Elias has taken to rebuild the franchise means we support the penny pinching ways of the current ownership when it's the farthest thing from the truth.

We have no idea whether Elias was allowed to make a big offer to Correa (despite the claims), but I do think the fact that Boros went to the Twins instead of the Orioles tells us a few things. 

Maybe he knows Elias can't or wouldn't spend that kind of money knowing Correa can just opt out after the year. 

Personally, I like what Elias has done to rebuild the franchise, but I do think it's time to start winning at the major league level. This has to be the last year of seeing if T. Wells, Zimmermann, Lowther, Akin, Kremer, A. Wells will be starters for this team. 

In 2023, Means, Rodriguez, Hall would make a nice top three and Rom could be in that conversation as well. But it would be real nice if they signed or traded for a good arm or two and then the team looks competitive to me.

We all feel frustration of losing and I understand your point of view that thinking the Orioles could have rebuilt while being a 70-80 win after thought instead of a 52 win embarrassment. But at the end of the day, I do think getting those large draft pools has helped rebuild this team and agree with you that they need to start showing improvements in the win column this year and be competitive by next year.

 

[now]

Question for Joc: What kind of payroll does it take to "compete" with those teams at the top spending 250-300m?

Will increasing from 30m to 60m do it? How about adding 100m in outside talent? Does 130m "compete" with 270m?

I guess he believes in the myth of "free opportunity," in an economy that siphons benefits to the 1%. 

[Sports Guy]

12 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Maybe Elias has an ownership that doesn't care, I don't think any of us (or very very, very few of us) are arguing that. You keep railing in Elias when Wildcard gave a great synopsis of what Elias has done under his circumstances.

You and few others are dumping on Elias when I see what Wildcard sees when it comes from how he's built the foundation of the organization better. 

I truly think we are in purgatory until Peter Angelos passes away because the team won't be sold until that happens for financial reasons. The only hope (outside of the Peter Angelos passing) is with some improvements this year from some of the young players, as well as the arrival of some of the bigger prospects, that John Angelos will pay some next year. 

Railing on Elias like he's done nothing misses the point. You and a few others seems to think that those of us that appreciate the route Elias has taken to rebuild the franchise means we support the penny pinching ways of the current ownership when it's the farthest thing from the truth.

We have no idea whether Elias was allowed to make a big offer to Correa (despite the claims), but I do think the fact that Boros went to the Twins instead of the Orioles tells us a few things. 

Maybe he knows Elias can't or wouldn't spend that kind of money knowing Correa can just opt out after the year. 

Personally, I like what Elias has done to rebuild the franchise, but I do think it's time to start winning at the major league level. This has to be the last year of seeing if T. Wells, Zimmermann, Lowther, Akin, Kremer, A. Wells will be starters for this team. 

In 2023, Means, Rodriguez, Hall would make a nice top three and Rom could be in that conversation as well. But it would be real nice if they signed or traded for a good arm or two and then the team looks competitive to me.

We all feel frustration of losing and I understand your point of view that thinking the Orioles could have rebuilt while being a 70-80 win after thought instead of a 52 win embarrassment. But at the end of the day, I do think getting those large draft pools has helped rebuild this team and agree with you that they need to start showing improvements in the win column this year and be competitive by next year.

 

Im Not railing on Elias at all.

[geschinger]

9 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I'm conditioned to expect it, too.  

But I'd be somewhat more understanding if we were losing 100 games routinely and had a terrible farm system.  But that's not the case here.  I think it's pretty stupid to wait until all these guys have graduated before making any moves, especially when it comes to the rotation and the pitching staff on the whole.

The Astros farm system similarly as good going into 2014 as the Orioles is today.   Sure their potentially may be better approaches but I don't think stupid is the right description for one that worked so well for Houston. 

12 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Ahhh, can't lose 100 games if you don't play a full 162!  I'm sure 2020 would have made it a 4th straight losing season if all the games were played.

As I know you know - there was no minor league season in 2020.  Had it been a normal year they lose 100+ in 2020 and everyone at the MiL level is level higher.  The 2021 MLB team is better with players like Adley etc.  

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

Which is limbo.

Year four of tearing down and "seeing what we have".

You can't compare this to the Astros anymore, by this point the Astros were moving forward, not continuing to cut payroll.

I think our 2018 starting point was worse than the Astros for a few reasons, and 2020 certainly slowed the development of our minor leaguers (no more than any other team, but when development of minor leaguers is a huge key to your plan, it can’t help but slow it down when the players aren’t playing).   So, I’m not surprised our timetable is behind the Astros’.

That said, if the young players don’t push the team forward this year, it will be cause for major concern.