Mateo Trade Potential

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Tough to say. His OAA was excellent in far less games, so perhaps had he played the same amount, he brings the same or more defensive value to the table. 

Of course, if we had dealt for Adames a few years ago like I said, he had a WAR 2 wins better than Mateo.

[RZNJ]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

I was citing one example.

I was not stating that it is something that is true in every case.

In Matt's case we have pretty solid evidence that he would have provided more overall value to the ML team if he had been promoted earlier.

Things are not often that clear.

Matt Wieters clobbered High A and AA pitching.   Do you think the Orioles would have fared better if that was his rookie season in the majors?

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, RZNJ said:

You seem paranoid.   You think everyone is trolling you.   Man up!   Or is that not possible?

No, I think you are trolling this thread because you bashed him for his offense and now, because people are arguing against it, you are leaning your SSS bs again.

Maybe contrarian is a better word but you are definitely inconsistent.

[LTO's]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Of course, if we had dealt for Adames a few years ago like I said, he had a WAR 2 wins better than Mateo.

Wow you suggested a trade for a great young player that would have never happened for a billion reasons. What a genius!

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, LTO's said:

Wow you suggested a trade for a great young player that would have never happened for a billion reasons. What a genius!

Why wouldn’t it have happened? I suggested it a few months before he was actually traded.   At that time, we had the pieces to do it and we had a need at SS.

And he wasn’t a “great young player”  back then. He was good but not great.

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Sports Guy

[RZNJ]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Of course, if we had dealt for Adames a few years ago like I said, he had a WAR 2 wins better than Mateo.

If you make 1,400,300 trades up, you're bound to come up with something once in awhile.    Easy to forget about all of the bad ones.  I'm sure you would have traded 4th outfielder Mullins and about 3 other guys for him too.   LOL

Last year is was Paul DeJong, who is owed 9.1M this year.    OMG!

[RZNJ]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

No, I think you are trolling this thread because you bashed him for his offense and now, because people are arguing against it, you are leaning your SSS bs again.

Maybe contrarian is a better word but you are definitely inconsistent.

It's simple.   He's offensively challenged but he definitely made some dramatic changes that worked last July.  He couldn't sustain it.  I have no problem if they think it's something they feel he can do permanently.

[Can_of_corn]

7 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Matt Wieters clobbered High A and AA pitching.   Do you think the Orioles would have fared better if that was his rookie season in the majors?

I think that would have been one of his six most valuable seasons if he had been in the majors.

That was the point I made.

Anything else is you trying to read something else into it.

You said the Elias might be trying to maximize the value of the time spent under team control by delaying promotion to the majors and I used Matt as an example of how that is not guaranteed to work.  Sometimes a guy might have a peak year while still in the minors.

I thought it an obvious enough point.  Somehow with you it is hardly ever easy.

[Big Mac]

The issue with Mateo is that defensive metrics/value can fluctuate wildly and if he goes from where he was last year to even just above average defensively without any improvement at the plate, he's probably a replacement level player.

I wouldn't give him away but I'd be inclined to take what I can get and let someone else take the gamble that the otherworldly defense continues.  I think the 3.4 WAR last year will be his career high water mark and probably by a significant margin. 

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, Big Mac said:

The issue with Mateo is that defensive metrics/value can fluctuate wildly and if he goes from where he was last year to even just above average defensively without any improvement at the plate, he's probably a replacement level player.

I wouldn't give him away but I'd be inclined to take what I can get and let someone else take the gamble that the otherworldly defense continues.  I think the 3.4 WAR last year will be his career high water mark and probably by a significant margin. 

That’s what is so amusing about all of this.

Mateo went from no one wanting to play him at SS and not having the best rep over there to an elite fielder and yet so many people just think that’s what he is now.

First of all, I think it’s obvious that scouts and other organizations screwed up with him. It’s clear the tools are there. But what we don’t know is if the consistency and sustainability are there. 
 

We know, for a fact, that defense does peak. We also know that, generally speaking, defense peaks early. Now, he is a bit of an outlier age wise but experience wise, he’s not (at least ML experience).

So, can he keep it up? My guess is that he will be an above average defender for at least another year or 2. But will he be elite, GG level? That remains to be seen and, as you said, if he’s not he will lose a ton of value.

Im not ready to sit here and today and guarantee that level of defense. Others seem to be saying that they will and are comfortable with that. I think that’s wrong but I can at least understand why they believe it.

[forphase1]

18 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Mateo should have won the GG last year, and imo, the platinum glove.  Ortiz, even if he is a fine defender, is not guaranteed to be that good.  In fact, it is highly likely that he isn't.

Again, Mateo was worth 3.5 WAR last year.  There's no guarantee Ortiz could replicate that next year, or even get close.

And there is no guarantee that Mateo will come close to that again either.  Or even get close.  If his bat doesn't improve he's likely not playing as much, and therefore not acquiring WAR.  As to the rest, who knows how Ortiz will be in comparison.  All reports say that he is the best defensive prospect of our bunch.  Could he also play gold glove defense?  I don't know, but it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibilities either.  Overall I think too many around here overrate Mateo and sell Ortiz short.  

[Ripken]

This thread is something.  Jorge Mateo has little value anywhere because he can't hit.  Whether he's here, or not here, has little to do with the success of our 2023 season.  Any return in trade will be minimal.  Let's go another 15 pages though!

[sportsfan8703]

Why are we talking about Ortiz for OD 23’?

SS - Gunnar

2B - Frazier

3B - Urias

Bench

SS/COF - Mateo 

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Why are we talking about Ortiz for OD 23’?

SS - Gunnar

2B - Frazier

3B - Urias

Bench

SS/COF - Mateo 

Putting Gunnar at short in 2023 will block Holliday in a few years.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Can_of_corn

[interloper]

5 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Why are we talking about Ortiz for OD 23’?

SS - Gunnar

2B - Frazier

3B - Urias

Bench

SS/COF - Mateo 

I tend to think Mateo will start at SS, but that's a quibble. I agree the roster will consist of these 4 middle infielders. Right now I have Vavra on the bench as the 2nd extra IF/OF, but there could be a scenario where they choose, say, Westburg, over Vavra for OD. I really, really doubt it though. I think they will try to wait for a trade or injury for Westburg or Ortiz.