Anthony Santander 2023

[Ohfan67]

11 minutes ago, Pickles said:

That's a good comp actually.  Santander to Bobby Bo.  Bonilla was the better player, primarily because of his onbase skills, but they share many similarities.

I totally disagree. In Bobby Bonilla's age 28 season, he was a four time All Star, had finished in the top three in MVP voting twice, was on his way to winning his third Silver Slugger award, and had posted OPS+ of > 140 three times (and 137 in another year). Comparing WAR is even more unfavorable to Santander. Bonilla was a significantly better player and it ain't even close. Bonilla generated roughly three times as much WAR as Santander at the same age and of course Bonilla played for ten more years. 

[G54377]

Let's get down and dirty. What would a trade for 2024 Santander fetch us? Assume he finishes out the year on the same pace he's on.

[Pickles]

6 minutes ago, Ohfan67 said:

I totally disagree. In Bobby Bonilla's age 28 season, he was a four time All Star, had finished in the top three in MVP voting twice, was on his way to winning his third Silver Slugger award, and had posted OPS+ of > 140 three times (and 137 in another year). Comparing WAR is even more unfavorable to Santander. Bonilla was a significantly better player and it ain't even close. Bonilla generated roughly three times as much WAR as Santander at the same age and of course Bonilla played for ten more years. 

Well, yeah, Bonilla was better, largely because of his OBP skills.  I fully acknowledged that.

They were both switch hitters, had similar levels of power, and similar defensive value.

[banks703]

27 minutes ago, Ohfan67 said:

I totally disagree. In Bobby Bonilla's age 28 season, he was a four time All Star, had finished in the top three in MVP voting twice, was on his way to winning his third Silver Slugger award, and had posted OPS+ of > 140 three times (and 137 in another year). Comparing WAR is even more unfavorable to Santander. Bonilla was a significantly better player and it ain't even close. Bonilla generated roughly three times as much WAR as Santander at the same age and of course Bonilla played for ten more years. 

Seeing similarities between players (which is what I posted) doesn't necessarily mean comparing one to the other.

Additionally, I've never been a big fan of comparing one era of baseball to another. Put Ohtani in the era of Babe Ruth and Ohtani probably hits 100 homeruns and steals 100 bases while winning 30 games while striking out 500 batters. Comparing eras of baseball is always going to be skewed. 

[Sports Guy]

27 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Well, yeah, Bonilla was better, largely because of his OBP skills.  I fully acknowledged that.

They were both switch hitters, had similar levels of power, and similar defensive value.

Without looking it up, similar heights and weights too?  Or was Bobby Bo a little bigger?

[NCRaven]

3 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Put Ohtani in the era of Babe Ruth and Ohtani probably hits 100 homeruns and steals 100 bases while winning 30 games while striking out 500 batters. Comparing eras of baseball is always going to be skewed. 

But, in the 1920's Japanese baseball probably wasn't a thing yet, nor were modern training methods, nutrition, etc..  Ohtani of 1929 would have been nothing compared to Ohtani of 2023.  Likewise, draft me a 17 year old Babe Ruth in 2019 with all of the current resources available and I probably give you an absolute monster by 2023.  As you said, it's silly to compare.

[Pickles]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Without looking it up, similar heights and weights too?  Or was Bobby Bo a little bigger?

With looking it up, both were listed at 6'3".  Santander listed as 20 lbs heavier, but I think they're being very kind to Bobby Bo in the weight category.  His listed weight of 210 is certainly from the man's salad days.

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Without looking it up, similar heights and weights too?  Or was Bobby Bo a little bigger?

Ok, so I just looked it up…Bobby Bo was listed at 6’3 210 and AS is listed at 6’2  230. Bobby Bo was no 210 when he was here lol

So yea, I don’t think it’s unfair to say you see a lot of similarities between the 2 of them.

[Pickles]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Ok, so I just looked it up…Bobby Bo was listed at 6’3 210 and AS is listed at 6’2  230. Bobby Bo was no 210 when he was here lol

So yea, I don’t think it’s unfair to say you see a lot of similarities between the 2 of them.

I had forgotten what an OB machine Bobby Bo had been.

[NCRaven]

8 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I don’t think it’s unfair to say....

Wait...does this mean you do think it's fair?  Is this like some algebra word problem where a negative times a negative equals a positive?

 

[Jim'sKid26]

14 minutes ago, NCRaven said:

But, in the 1920's Japanese baseball probably wasn't a thing yet, nor were modern training methods, nutrition, etc..  Ohtani of 1929 would have been nothing compared to Ohtani of 2023.  Likewise, draft me a 17 year old Babe Ruth in 2019 with all of the current resources available and I probably give you an absolute monster by 2023.  As you said, it's silly to compare.

In 1929 a 17 yo Ohtani is likely a midshipman at the Imperial Japanese Naval Academy hoping to receive a commission and a seat at the Kasumigaura Airfield to begin pilot training. I could see him flying a Mitsubishi A6M Zero off a carrier. Just sayin'

Edited August 29, 2023 by Jim'sKid26

[Sports Guy]

9 minutes ago, Pickles said:

I had forgotten what an OB machine Bobby Bo had been.

Yea he was a good player but damn, the man couldn’t catch a cold in the OF by the time he got here.

Thank god PA had the foresight to not allow us to trade him.

Who knew at the time that Bobby Bo would basically single handedly bring down the Os franchise for 25 years?

Edited August 29, 2023 by Sports Guy

[Ohfan67]

24 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Seeing similarities between players (which is what I posted) doesn't necessarily mean comparing one to the other.

Additionally, I've never been a big fan of comparing one era of baseball to another. Put Ohtani in the era of Babe Ruth and Ohtani probably hits 100 homeruns and steals 100 bases while winning 30 games while striking out 500 batters. Comparing eras of baseball is always going to be skewed. 

The era means very little in this case. I did not use any raw stats to demonstrate that Bonilla was a much better player. I guess maybe they look similar while standing in right field? I don't get the comparison at all, even if you are talking about superficial similarities. I think Bonilla was a much better athlete in his 20s than Santander has been. 

 

[Tony-OH]

Don't forget to give Dan Duquette some credit here for selecting Santander in the Rule 5 draft despite coming an A+ level season at 21-years old. If I recall, the Indians thought no one would take him because he underwent shoulder surgery after the season and would miss part 2017.

Quote

Duquette compared the young switch-hitter to Victor Martinez, after whom Santander modeled a lot of his game.
"[Santander] is an excellent young hitter," Duquette said. "He was the best offensive player in the Carolina League. We like his capability to hit in the big leagues, to hit from both sides of the plate for power. He recently had surgery on his shoulder, but at 22 years old, we think there's enough ability there -- particularly with the bat -- to take a chance on him and get him into our organization."

The craziest part, the Orioles took him in the 2nd round behind Red Sox outfielder Aneury Tavárez. It's kind of like Elias getting Tyler Wells in the second round after going with Ben McDonald's nephew Mac Sceroler in the first round. Wells was coming off missing a season due to Tommy John and COVID. 

I guess the second round is the charm. 

Santander (7.6 rWAR) has now surpassed Jay Gibbons (6.1 rWAR) as the Orioles best Rule 5 selectee ever.

[Oriole1940]

If Santander is traded  a huge hole for RBIs would be there to fill before any net gain would be realized.  We went through this lack of appreciation for Santander last year, and the story remains the same.   When he is compared to one or some of the better players to ever play the game, of course you will get the numbers you are looking for to make Santander look bad.  No one said he is of that level of excellence, but this is a textbook example of   THE  IF IT IS NOT BROKEN DO NOT FIX IT.   He is plenty  good,  that other areas need fixing before this one.