Ortiz vs Westburg

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, AnythingO's said:

Ortiz may well be a better SS glove than Holiday but could be a GG 2B alongside Holiday.

If Ortiz is going to be a starter and has a better glove than Holliday, why wouldn’t you put Ortiz at SS and make Holliday the 2B?

[RZNJ]

13 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

No I don’t think I did. I honestly can’t remember.

But if your point is anything can happen, I agree. I just feel that we have to much org talent to be content with being underdogs/outmanned/outgunned going into the postseason.

I agree up to a point.  I mentioned Eduardo Rodriguez and sending Tyler Wells to the bullpen and you didn’t seem in favor of that.  Was it only the aspect of removing Wells from the rotation?

[RZNJ]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

If Ortiz is going to be a starter and has a better glove than Holliday, why wouldn’t you put Ortiz at SS and make Holliday the 2B?

I’m with you but SS is the glamour position and 90% of the board has anointed Holliday the future SS without even knowing how he stacks up against Ortiz or Henderson there.

[Frobby]

31 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

I’m with you but SS is the glamour position and 90% of the board has anointed Holliday the future SS without even knowing how he stacks up against Ortiz or Henderson there.

Back in the day, Bobby Grich was a better overall prospect than Belanger and certainly a capable SS, but Weaver decided that when both started, Grich would be the 2B.  I’d say that decision worked out.  I’d expect the same logic would apply to Ortiz and Holliday, if the talent evaluation is similar.  

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

Back in the day, Bobby Grich was a better overall prospect than Belanger and certainly a capable SS, but Weaver decided that when both started, Grich would be the 2B.  I’d say that decision worked out.  I’d expect the same logic would apply to Ortiz and Holliday, if the talent evaluation is similar.  

Boy...Grich as a SS.  That probably gets him into the HoF.

[Frobby]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

Boy...Grich as a SS.  That probably gets him into the HoF.

In his career, Grich started 141 games at SS (89 with the Orioles and 52 with the Angels).   And he was good defensively — +10 Rtot.  He also played 18 games there as a defensive replacement.  Bottom line, he could have been a solid SS.  But he was a Gold Glove 2B, alongside a Gold Glove SS in Belanger.  

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Frobby said:

In his career, Grich started 141 games at SS (89 with the Orioles and 52 with the Angels).   And he was good defensively — +10 Rtot.  He also played 18 games there as a defensive replacement.  Bottom line, he could have been a solid SS.  But he was a Gold Glove 2B, alongside a Gold Glove SS in Belanger.  

I'm just saying that as a solid SS he probably gets into the Hall.

He is clearly deserving either way.

[Bemorewins]

47 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

I agree up to a point.  I mentioned Eduardo Rodriguez and sending Tyler Wells to the bullpen and you didn’t seem in favor of that.  Was it only the aspect of removing Wells from the rotation?

Don’t get me wrong I am not opposed to Eduardo Rodriguez as he has been pitching like an ace this year. I just think Wells is one of our better starter (probably 1 or 2 unfortunately). If someone is to go to the pen I would prefer it be, one of the others.

One issues that I have with Eduard Rodriguez is that he doesn’t solve our void at the top of the rotation for next season and beyond.

Some posters told me that was Grayson. And while it may be and we hope that it will be, he is still a good ways away from that.

IMO - it’s time for Elias to start valuing the pursuit of a championship. I understand that many have their favorite prospect(s). But I don’t want to value the future OVER the awesome opportunity that has presented itself this year.

I don’t think we need to take an either or approach where we have to pick winning now or winning later/long term. It’s ok if we do both. We can hold on to the REAL cornerstone prospects in Holliday, Cowser, Kjerstad, Gunnar and Grayson. (I know Gunnar and Grayson have graduated off of lists.) But if we have to give up some from the rest, that’s okay. Because the value of having an impact starting pitcher will be felt and most critical when it counts most.

[AnythingO's]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

If Ortiz is going to be a starter and has a better glove than Holliday, why wouldn’t you put Ortiz at SS and make Holliday the 2B?

I expect Holiday's total package (glove & bat) to be better than Ortiz so he gets SS. Tony rated Ortiz glove just below Mateo and thought he would be GG at 2B. My post was in response to another post saying Ortiz had no value to us when Holiday was SS.

[deward]

3 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

I see. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. 

We have totally different philosophies/perspective and that’s ok.

I believe that we have to take advantage of this year’s opportunity because is sports their are too many unpredictable variables to rationally project out 2 years. No matter which year (this year or any other we will need better starting pitching than what we currently have). 

I definitely don’t want to punt on this year by rolling with what we have. An objective look at our competitors can reasonably say that the odds would be long of us getting through 3 rounds of the AL with the rotation as is (including the wild card addition of Means).

I was laying out a scenario where both Ortiz and Westburg can stay in the org, not necessarily proposing my preferred course of action. I think this would be a good year to try and pick up a rental pitcher without giving up one of the big prospects. For a pitcher with multiple years of control remaining, Ortiz would be one of the guys I'd be willing to part with. From what we've seen so far, I think Elias is likely to hoard his top guys. 

[Bemorewins]

12 minutes ago, deward said:

I was laying out a scenario where both Ortiz and Westburg can stay in the org, not necessarily proposing my preferred course of action. I think this would be a good year to try and pick up a rental pitcher without giving up one of the big prospects. For a pitcher with multiple years of control remaining, Ortiz would be one of the guys I'd be willing to part with. From what we've seen so far, I think Elias is likely to hoard his top guys. 

He should hoard the top guys - Holliday, Cowser, Gunnar, Grayson, and Kjerstad.

Everyone else should be available to be used to upgrade the team. Obviously not all of them, but whichever ones need to be included in a package, I hope he is willing to consider.

[orioles22]

I like Ortiz better than Westburg because I do like the Ortiz-Holliday combo for the long term. I also think it could be Holliday at second in that scenario.

My theory is we may keep both. If we want a future star pitcher in return, we may have to trade a future star third baseman in return and settle for Westburg at third, or perhaps Urias a few more years.

[Billy F-Face3]

Ortiz has impressive, and I mean IMPRESSIVE defense. Elite defense. But his bat is basically just hoping to get lucky and drop the ball in a gap. (At least he makes contact and puts it in play, which is alot more than can be said for some other players.)

Westburg has a GREAT bat with power, and adequate defense. I really really want to see what Westburg can do in the big leagues. I might be a little biased and over rating him, because the first time I ever heard about Jordan Westburg was when he was hitting 2 home runs a game a couple times last season. Whether he is the man, will depend on consistency and how good his defense can be.

I think pitchers might appreciate Ortiz's defense a little more though.

[Sydnor]

8 hours ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

Ortiz has impressive, and I mean IMPRESSIVE defense. Elite defense. But his bat is basically just hoping to get lucky and drop the ball in a gap. (At least he makes contact and puts it in play, which is alot more than can be said for some other players.)

Westburg has a GREAT bat with power, and adequate defense. I really really want to see what Westburg can do in the big leagues. I might be a little biased and over rating him, because the first time I ever heard about Jordan Westburg was when he was hitting 2 home runs a game a couple times last season. Whether he is the man, will depend on consistency and how good his defense can be.

I think pitchers might appreciate Ortiz's defense a little more though.

This is just not true. There seem to be some who believe Ortiz is a slap hitter who cannot drive the ball. Ortiz can drive the ball. I don’t know where to find statcast data for minor leaguers (I don’t think it’s publicly available), but he had an average exit velocity of 94.5 mph earlier this season (https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mlb-prospect-watch-15-american-league-minor-leaguers-with-wild-stats-including-trade-bait-dairon-blanco/amp/). By way of comparison, Adley’s average exit velocity this year is 88.5 mph. I’m not saying that his EV will exceed Adley’s at the major league level. I’m just trying to illustrate that Ortiz drives the ball.

It’s fine to prefer Westburg, but to act like Ortiz can’t drive the ball is just wrong. I’ve also seen them both play and I’ve see Ortiz hit HRs to left center, right center, and straight away center. He smoked a double to left center in Toronto. I’m sure he’ll struggle some when he receives a greater opportunity at the major league level, but he is a good all around hitter.

[orioles22]

10 hours ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

Ortiz has impressive, and I mean IMPRESSIVE defense. Elite defense. But his bat is basically just hoping to get lucky and drop the ball in a gap. (At least he makes contact and puts it in play, which is alot more than can be said for some other players.)

Westburg has a GREAT bat with power, and adequate defense. I really really want to see what Westburg can do in the big leagues. I might be a little biased and over rating him, because the first time I ever heard about Jordan Westburg was when he was hitting 2 home runs a game a couple times last season. Whether he is the man, will depend on consistency and how good his defense can be.

I think pitchers might appreciate Ortiz's defense a little more though.

You must have missed all those posts about Ortiz's exit velocity and how he hit the second half of last season. I expect him to be as good as Westburg on offense, if not better, and much more skilled on defense with the ability to play three positions very well.