Orioles To Designate Spenser Watkins For Assignment

[ArtVanDelay]

4 hours ago, Frobby said:

I really don’t know why anyone thought a Watkins DFA was going to lead to a Westburg/Cowser move.  

So it’s more logical that it leads to a Bemboom move?

[forphase1]

57 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I think the possible answers are blindingly obvious.  

1.  Management thinks more highly of the contributions of Frazier and Mateo than you do.

2.  Management thinks more highly of the potential contributions of Frazier and Mateo going forward than you do.

3.  Management is less confident than you are that Westburg and Ortiz will be able to contribute as much or more than  Mateo and Frazier.

It’s really that simple. 

You like fWAR better than rWAR; it’s fine for you to have that opinion, but they differ significantly and maybe the O’s internal metrics on Frazier and Mateo (which I’m sure they have) are more in line with rWAR, or even exceed it.  And maybe they see things in Westburg’s and Ortiz’s performance that make them think they’re not as good, at least right now.   
 

 

If 1 and 2 is accurate, then I think much less of the contributions of Elias and Hyde and company than I did previously.  IF they have internal metrics that say Mateo has been a valuable player over the past 6 weeks, then it's time to scrap those metrics and build new ones.  There is no question that Elias has built a top minor league program, and of course we are playing good baseball and unless we collapse we should make the playoffs.  All of which is great and is amazing, and NOT trying to take away from what we've done or where we are.  But I think we could be SO much better and SO much more potent of an offense if we could replace some of the underperforming bats with just average bats.

[ArtVanDelay]

3 hours ago, wildcard said:

Its pretty simple.  Elias wants Cowser and Westburg to play everyday and there is not enough playing time for that to happen with the O's.   

They promoted Ortiz and he hardly plays.

You can’t be serious.  Josh Lester and James McCann have been getting ABs.  Mateo and Frazier don’t need to be in the lineup every day. 

[Baltimorecuse]

6 hours ago, interloper said:

It's Bemboom who is added back onto the 40-man (noted by the verbiage, "contract selected"). Gillaspie was already on the 40-man, he had previously been optioned. Godoy remains on the 40-man, and is optioned. So the 40-man again has 3 catchers, and one less pitcher. 

Maybe they are going to sell AR.

[HelenaEngineer]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

I can understand the argument or opinion due to the fact that you never quite know what you can expect from a rookie making his debut. Typically you would not want them all in the lineup IF the team has better options. IF being the key to that sentence.

Mateo and Frazier are two players that would make up an interesting bench because of their combination of skills. The Orioles have both Ortiz and Westburg ready to play everyday. Personally, I don't think the team plays worse with both of them in the lineup and you can't even use defense because to me Ortiz = Mateo and Frazier's defense has been below average in just about every defensive metric you want to go by so how much worse can Westburg be?

I like Frazier off the bench (regardless of his contract) because I've seen that he's a good contact hitter, tough guy to K, and a good high leverage guy. Those are things that make him valuable off the bench late in games. Mateo's speed and ability to come in and play SS without losing a beat is valuable as well. 

I could see Frazier pinch-hitting for Ortiz or maybe Westburg against a tough righty late in games is a K is the worse thing that could happen. 

 

I get this as well, but I think the compromise solution where Ortiz gets at least semi-regular playing time, putting either Frazier or Mateo on the bench on any given night, instead of playing Ortiz and Westburg both, seems reasonable and more likely to occur. If they feel Westburg is more likely to contribute than Ortiz, they can always DFA a catcher and option Ortiz and give those ABs to Westburg. I have no reason to believe their expectations are higher for Westburg than for Ortiz, but who knows. They certainly would not reveal their internal evaluations, but who they activated in April might be a clue.

I do like Frazier as a bench player due to his versatility in the field, experience and ability to put the ball in play. At the same time, I would want either Ortiz or Westburg to provide an upgrade offensively over what Frazier is likely to do and would like to find out if one of them can do that, sooner rather than later.

Frankly, if you took Urias, Mateo, Frazier, Ortiz and Westburg, realizing that you need at least two of them on the field and one on the bench, and asked me who would provide the most production between now and the end of the season given regular playing time, I would have no idea. I hope Elias, Hyde and company do and that combination of players gets that time.

[SteveA]

7 hours ago, glenn__davis said:

It is a bit of a strange decision to me.  Watkins the person seems like a great dude and a good story but I've never really been a fan of Watkins the pitcher.  To me, fair or not, he represented kind of the worst part of the rebuild, just filling the roster with warm bodies rather than making an attempt to actually improve the team.

That said, they held on to him for this long, why DFA him now?  Just seems like odd timing to me, but to frank I don't understand most of the decisions they make with the ML roster.

Several reasons:

• He is not performing.   He is 30, and has a 7+ ERA in AAA.   The last two years, his AAA ERA were 3.53 and 2.84.   (Other stats that you might like more than ERA also indicate a dropoff).
• The Orioles came into this season with a contender mindset, which means a 30 yo AAAA pitcher was far less likely to get starts in the major leagues.   In case you haven't noticed, every game but one this year has been started by a bona fide established major league starter or legitimate prospect (Keegan Akin opened a game in St Louis).   Last year, by my count, there were 39 games started by AAAA/journeymen/relievers, and that is if you still consider 2022 Zimmermann as a prospect, otherwise that number goes up.   2021 was similar.

Watkins had a role on the team in 2021 and 2022:   fill starts because we didn't have guys ready.    They didn't go into the season planning to contend, so the only way Watkins wasn't going to see time in the big leagues was if a whole bunch of guys like Kremer/Bradish/Zimmerman/Baumann/Lowther/Wells/Akin stayed healthy and pitched well enough to join Lyles, the only established MLB  starter in our rotation at the start of  last year, and those guys could cover almost all the starts.  Well, some of those guys proved they belonged, but as a group they couldn't cover the 130 games that Lyles didn't.

This year we started the season with established MLB starters in Lyles and Gibson, young guys who had proved they deserved a shot at the rotation like Wells, Bradish, and Kremer, plus he top pitching prospect in baseball.   Watkins was never going to play a significant role at the major league level this year unless a whole lot of crap hit the fan in a bad way.     He had a different role this year:  be in the AAA rotation until guys like Povich were ready to take spots, and only come up to the majors in a break-glass-in-case-of-emergency situation.    

So this was probably always his fate:   to be called up on the shuttle when we needed a rested arm, and to be DFA'd shortly thereafter.   If he wants to ride that same ride again, he can accept the assignment to Norfolk after he clears waivers, and wait his turn.

[EddeeEddee]

11 minutes ago, HelenaEngineer said:

I get this as well, but I think the compromise solution where Ortiz gets at least semi-regular playing time, putting either Frazier or Mateo on the bench on any given night, instead of playing Ortiz and Westburg both, seems reasonable and more likely to occur. If they feel Westburg is more likely to contribute than Ortiz, they can always DFA a catcher and option Ortiz and give those ABs to Westburg. I have no reason to believe their expectations are higher for Westburg than for Ortiz, but who knows. They certainly would not reveal their internal evaluations, but who they activated in April might be a clue.

I do like Frazier as a bench player due to his versatility in the field, experience and ability to put the ball in play. At the same time, I would want either Ortiz or Westburg to provide an upgrade offensively over what Frazier is likely to do and would like to find out if one of them can do that, sooner rather than later.

Frankly, if you took Urias, Mateo, Frazier, Ortiz and Westburg, realizing that you need at least two of them on the field and one on the bench, and asked me who would provide the most production between now and the end of the season given regular playing time, I would have no idea. I hope Elias, Hyde and company do and that combination of players gets that time.

Just speculating but I think there's a good chance one of them gets traded before the deadline.  Which one depends on the trading partner and their needs.  A win now partner will, I'm guessing, want Urias or Frazier, while a rebuilding partner will obviously more likely want Ortiz or Westburg.  Mateo I think would be a good trade piece for another bounce back candidate or a rental (or both) -- like maybe a Zach Greinke (though I doubt Mateo alone would get Greinke).

[AnythingO's]

3 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

This is the part of this argument I don’t get. 
Mateo has proven, over a lot of pro at bats, that he is a below average hitter.

Frazier is showing that while he can help you at times, he is largely not much more than a replacement player. 

Yet, we are ok with playing them because “”we don’t want several rookies” in the lineup at one time?

How does that make any sense?

OK, PLEASE don't construe my comment about ME as in any way supporting that logic or being OK with it, patently not true. Westburg should have been the 2B in ST, Cowser should be up by now, I know injury, but soon. Mateo, I'm still hoping for another hot streak. At least he appears to be trying to change his bad approach, Mounty not so much. 

[Winter]

5 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

He faced 4 hitters the other day..walked all 4.

He isn’t close.

yeah we aren't going to see Tate on the orioles this year i've accepted that as reality 

[Bemorewins]

39 minutes ago, EddeeEddee said:

Just speculating but I think there's a good chance one of them gets traded before the deadline.  Which one depends on the trading partner and their needs.  A win now partner will, I'm guessing, want Urias or Frazier, while a rebuilding partner will obviously more likely want Ortiz or Westburg.  Mateo I think would be a good trade piece for another bounce back candidate or a rental (or both) -- like maybe a Zach Greinke (though I doubt Mateo alone would get Greinke).

Why in the world would the Orioles be interested in giving Greinke starts if they are trying to win? What does Zach Greinke do for us other than occupy a roster spot and give us less than mediocre results?

[owknows]

17 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Why in the world would the Orioles be interested in giving Greinke starts if they are trying to win? What does Zach Greinke do for us other than occupy a roster spot and give us less than mediocre results?

He give us the Odor factor.

(double entendre intended)

[Since1984]

2 hours ago, ArtVanDelay said:

So it’s more logical that it leads to a Bemboom move?

I try to make sense of these moves and can only come up with 2-4 decision trees that make sense:

Bemboom knows the system and pitchers. Throw in any defense and roster manipulation for injuries expected for the year

The FO is timing rookie seasons so that Adley, Gunnar, Cowser, Westburg etc. are staggered to allow for trades, payrolls and competitive windows to extend for the next 6+ years.

Adding veteran presence to a young team. Hicks was on ME’s list this off-season, although a reclamation project. Veteran success in the lineup impacts this young team (e.g. Frazier’s pitch selection, Mcann’s experience as an all-star season; Gibson’s effectiveness and approach; Hicks welcoming a fresh start)

wish I had the calculator for these moves, but I will remain an observer for the rest of the season. Go Orioles!

[Billy F-Face3]

5 hours ago, wildcard said:

Bemboom is superior defensively and with the pitchers from what I have read.  Can't hit but that is not what the O's are focused on apparently.

Yes, but they won't make the mistake of having Bemboom be the designated hitter. Also you are correct that Bemboom plays better defense at catcher. As an example, I think we can look to the game in Texas early in the season when Bradish got injured out of the game, and Bemboom was catching and provided stability for Coloumbe and Tyler Wells to come in and save the day.

[Billy F-Face3]

11 minutes ago, Since1984 said:

I try to make sense of these moves and can only come up with 2-4 decision trees that make sense:

Bemboom knows the system and pitchers. Throw in any defense and roster manipulation for injuries expected for the year

The FO is timing rookie seasons so that Adley, Gunnar, Cowser, Westburg etc. are staggered to allow for trades, payrolls and competitive windows to extend for the next 6+ years.

Adding veteran presence to a young team. Hicks was on ME’s list this off-season, although a reclamation project. Veteran success in the lineup impacts this young team (e.g. Frazier’s pitch selection, Mcann’s experience as an all-star season; Gibson’s effectiveness and approach; Hicks welcoming a fresh start)

wish I had the calculator for these moves, but I will remain an observer for the rest of the season. Go Orioles!

You win the day with your good sense. Staggard contract obligations for different seasons is the best explanation I've read. 

[Sports Guy]

4 hours ago, Frobby said:

I think the possible answers are blindingly obvious.  

1.  Management thinks more highly of the contributions of Frazier and Mateo than you do.

2.  Management thinks more highly of the potential contributions of Frazier and Mateo going forward than you do.

3.  Management is less confident than you are that Westburg and Ortiz will be able to contribute as much or more than  Mateo and Frazier.

It’s really that simple. 

You like fWAR better than rWAR; it’s fine for you to have that opinion, but they differ significantly and maybe the O’s internal metrics on Frazier and Mateo (which I’m sure they have) are more in line with rWAR, or even exceed it.  And maybe they see things in Westburg’s and Ortiz’s performance that make them think they’re not as good, at least right now.   
 

 

I question anyone that has seen the resume of Frazier offensively for 2 calendar years and his defense this year and thinks he’s that good.

You can use whatever WAR makes you feel better. The bottom line is, whether they are statcast, traditional or advanced stats, Frazier has been abysmal offensively for the last 1100 or so at bats.

The speed is declining and the defense isn’t as strong as it was even last year.

So, you can use whatever WAR you like..the good one or the Bs one. But all the stats say he’s not that good anymore.

Mateo is a train wreck offensively by any measure. The speed and defense are great and this team values defense a lot, thus why he still plays.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Sports Guy