MLB article on what it would take to get Shohei Ohtani. Has Orioles trading 5 guys. Boston 1.

[Bemorewins]

1 hour ago, Billy F-Face3 said:

All the more reason to trade Norby. Just like Hernaiz, there's no place to play him. So why not give him an opportunity to have a Big League career by trading him? He is capital/leverage for the top quality pitching we need if he is a part of a package. 

As for Montgomery I'm not sue how I feel about that because he's a rental just like Ohtani and Montgomery has been injured. Even if he isn't injured, it begs rhe questions of "How much is he going to cost to acquire?" and "Is he really going to move the needle all that much from our current pitching staff?"

My friend, you are talking to a brick wall when making this kind of point to some posters. Some posters are more concerned with retaining almost all prospects as opposed to improving the Big League team this year.

I don't begrudge anyone for their opinions, but I have accepted the reality that there is no use in making this argument. They are not going to change their mind, no matter what. Not even if we could acquire the greatest player the game has known in all of our life-times.

I heard a fan make a point about this earlier today on the radio - It went something like because we have been so terrible for an extended period of time (before last year) the only thing that we had to feel good about was our accumulation and development of prospects. Because fans have followed these guys and have developed attachments to them, some don't want any of "their guys" moved at any cost. Even if that means that they will never be an everyday regular. As long, as some of the team doesn't get them and the turn out to do well elsewhere.

Oh and to respond to your point about Montgomery, we all know that he does not compare favorable if he has to match up to the Coles, McClanahans, Gausmans, Valdezes, etc of the world. It would be a move just to make a move and keep cost down (more hedging type of move), but would not reasonably increase our odds much for postseason success. 

[Bemorewins]

1 hour ago, Gurgi said:

I cant see Elias and John Angelos giving away five guys for a  bigger stash of lottery tickets in the post season.  John wants the Orioles to be run like Milwaukee and the Rays.  Elias stated in his opening press conference the Orioles would be a draft and develop team.  

I think if Peter still was aware of the world he would do the trade.  Just for a chance to win before the end.  I dont think John thinks this way yet.  

Also Elias wants to dominate the East for years....I dont think he would imagine this trade doing that.  

I think he will husband his prospects and deal them out to get pitching and pitching that is controllable.  

Nothing about a Shohei deal makes long term sense.  I think we work to add to the team on a budget.  Probably get bullpen help and maybe some number 2 starting pitcher.  I dont think we are going for any true ace.  

In your opinion, does trading players not slated to be regular starters let alone foundational pieces hinder our chances to "dominate the East for years"?

I get it that many fans/posters like "their guys" and have favorite prospects, so I accept that could inform one's opinion. But if the player is not really projected to be a star (have some kind of elite tools) or has another player or other player(s) already in the same spot that they play, or has another player behind them with more talent/potential/higher ceiling than them; will it really effect our "odds" one way or the other if they stay or are moved?

I'm not necessarily advocating for an Ohtani deal.

But if we can move pieces who made not be as useful here (but much more useful elsewhere) for a piece(s) who are need here to help us be a significantly better team (like as you mention a #2 starter) isn't it worth it to at least explore/consider?

[GuidoSarducci]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

It’s depend if they’d give us 36 hours to hammer out a long term deal to keep him here. 

If yes, it’s a no brainer. 

We will not pony up the ~$500m it takes to sign Ohtani, even if he wanted to be here (I don't think he does)

Yes, our payroll is low ($91 million, including all deferred/retained money)   My guess is our ultimate payroll cap is roughly around $150m max.   The picture doesn't look better next year, alot of those guys will be FA (which has positives and negative, but its roughly even) or will get raises in arbitration. 

So Ohtani would burn through pretty much all of our remaining payroll space were we to sign him.

If we were to somehow sign Ohtani , we are basically saying that we're aren't planning on signing anyone of any significance for the next 7-8 years, including Adley, Gunnar, etc.  Basically we will be the Angels within 2-3 years, if we're lucky.  More likely we would be significantly below .500, and with a relatively high payroll without much flexibility, virtually guaranteeing the suck would continue for another 5 years after that.

[ArtVanDelay]

So people think trading Joey Ortiz and some mediocrity for the greatest player of all time is some insane overpay?  That’s wild. 
 

I’d make that deal all day. 

[Gurgi]

1 minute ago, ArtVanDelay said:

So people think trading Joey Ortiz and some mediocrity for the greatest player of all time is some insane overpay?  That’s wild. 
 

I’d make that deal all day. 

Joey hit a homer off Max Fried today in Norfolk.  He is by all judges a MLB caliber SS right now.  He likely will have at least a  five year career.   Then they have us giving up four more talents.  So its an overpay I think.  

[EddeeEddee]

3 minutes ago, GuidoSarducci said:

We will not pony up the ~$500m it takes to sign Ohtani, even if he wanted to be here (I don't think he does)

Yes, our payroll is low ($91 million, including all deferred/retained money)   My guess is our ultimate payroll cap is roughly around $150m max.   The picture doesn't look better next year, alot of those guys will be FA (which has positives and negative, but its roughly even) or will get raises in arbitration. 

So Ohtani would burn through pretty much all of our remaining payroll space were we to sign him.

If we were to somehow sign Ohtani , we are basically saying that we're aren't planning on signing anyone of any significance for the next 7-8 years, including Adley, Gunnar, etc.  Basically we will be the Angels within 2-3 years, if we're lucky.  More likely we would be significantly below .500, and with a relatively high payroll without much flexibility, virtually guaranteeing the suck would continue for another 5 years after that.

Not that I think he does, but if Ohtani did express a desire to play for Baltimore -- whether it's  because he's excited about playing with a young, talented team, or because he likes crabcakes and pit beef -- the O's would certainly consider signing him because all of the extra revenue he could potentially generate for the O's.  Whether it's a new fanbase from Japan attending games or selling Ohtani t-shirts, you name it -- a  player like Ohtani could be a once in a lifetime goldmine for whichever team signs him.  

[24fps]

4 hours ago, Gurgi said:

https://www.mlb.com/news/shohei-ohtani-potential-trade-deadline-deals

ORIOLES PROPOSAL

Orioles get: Shohei Ohtani

Angels get: INF Joey Ortiz (Orioles No. 5 prospect, No. 62 overall), INF/OF Connor Norby (Orioles No. 6 prospect, No. 65 overall), LHP DL Hall (Orioles No. 9 prospect), OF Dylan Beavers (Orioles No. 10 prospect), OF Kyle Stowers.

RED SOX PROPOSAL

Red Sox get: Shohei Ohtani

Angels get: SS Marcelo Mayer (Red Sox No. 1 prospect, No. 3 overall)

 

After tonight’s curb stomping by Rays pitching, I needed a good laugh. 

[Orioles0615]

I would do that in a second for Ohtani. 

 

People saying we don't need Ohtani are just plain delusional. For all we know this is pour best chance at a world series. The Yankees and Red Sox are down and Toronto is under performing. You damn well know next year the Yankees and Red Sox will be massivly improved while the Orioles will sit and sign the Gibsons/Lyles of the world and more pointless players to block prospects 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Orioles0615

[Orioles0615]

2 hours ago, Gurgi said:

Joey hit a homer off Max Fried today in Norfolk.  He is by all judges a MLB caliber SS right now.  He likely will have at least a  five year career.   Then they have us giving up four more talents.  So its an overpay I think.  

Then call Joey up all ready and play him every day at SS with Gunnar and Westburg and SS and 2b. But oh wait we need to get Mateo and Fraizer in

[Gurgi]

1 minute ago, Orioles0615 said:

Then call Joey up all ready and play him every day at SS with Gunnar and Westburg and SS and 2b. But oh wait we need to get Mateo and Fraizer in

They seem to be very respectful of vets.  Look at how they treated Odor last year.  They must see it as not only they want to get them playing time they seem to think if they signed them in the offseason they will give them every chance to play possible.  I think we will have to suffer with Mateo and Frazier to the bitter end.  We should watch how Elias treats vet players.   I think it might not even be for this season alone.  But maybe to boost the teams reputation in future years and get more guys wanting to sign here because Elias will play them even if they suck for extended periods.

[Orioles0615]

43 minutes ago, Gurgi said:

They seem to be very respectful of vets.  Look at how they treated Odor last year.  They must see it as not only they want to get them playing time they seem to think if they signed them in the offseason they will give them every chance to play possible.  I think we will have to suffer with Mateo and Frazier to the bitter end.  We should watch how Elias treats vet players.   I think it might not even be for this season alone.  But maybe to boost the teams reputation in future years and get more guys wanting to sign here because Elias will play them even if they suck for extended periods.

Yes but (and this has nothing to do with this year) what pointless vet to block playing time will we sign next year though? There should be no  more pointless infielders, Westburg, Gunnar, and Ortiz (unless traded) should be the infield next year. And Heston should be in the outfield next year along with Mullins and Cowser. At some point you need to stop with the veteran blocking players. 

[Can_of_corn]

54 minutes ago, Gurgi said:

They seem to be very respectful of vets.  Look at how they treated Odor last year.  They must see it as not only they want to get them playing time they seem to think if they signed them in the offseason they will give them every chance to play possible.  I think we will have to suffer with Mateo and Frazier to the bitter end.  We should watch how Elias treats vet players.   I think it might not even be for this season alone.  But maybe to boost the teams reputation in future years and get more guys wanting to sign here because Elias will play them even if they suck for extended periods.

Why would we want to sign guys likely to suck for extended periods?

[Alasdaire]

3 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

I heard a fan make a point about this earlier today on the radio - It went something like because we have been so terrible for an extended period of time (before last year) the only thing that we had to feel good about was our accumulation and development of prospects. Because fans have followed these guys and have developed attachments to them, some don't want any of "their guys" moved at any cost. Even if that means that they will never be an everyday regular. As long, as some of the team doesn't get them and the turn out to do well elsewhere.

Is there anything wrong with that? If your only definition of success is winning the whole thing, you're going to be disappointed literally all of the time except for a fleetingly rare moment if you're lucky. Having an organizational culture, the roster being composed of "your guys," and preserving hope for the future are worthwhile ends in and of themselves to me.

The Ravens aren't a dynasty, but they have the "Ravens Way" ideology, and you could call most seasons over the past 25 years successful. The Orioles weren't perennial winners under Ripken, but factors that had nothing to do with winning like the narrative around Cal and the new ballpark made for a successful era on the whole.

And even apart from that, I think prioritizing stability and waiting for the right opportunities is a better approach to ultimately going all the way than convincing yourself that the time is NOW.

Do you think the Miami Heat should pay whatever Portland wants for Dame Lillard? It's fundamentally against how they operate. They have their convictions and they look for opportunities to present themselves. It has kept them relevant for a very long time and given them many shots in the finals including multiple rings. I'm sure there are some people within their fanbase clamoring for them to cave to the Blazers and put together whatever package it would take because they have limitless depth and they absolutely must capitalize on their current window. I doubt they'll do that. Because if they don't get Lillard, they'll still be in the mix next year either way. And maybe next year Giannis becomes available and they get him in a way that they couldn't have if they had overpaid for Lillard.

It's like the people who bet on five games or pick ten stocks every single day. That's a recipe for disaster. Have your model and let the plays come to you. If they present themselves then great. If not then that's okay too. Stay alive and relevant, that's the best way to both avoid abject misery and to give yourself a chance at making it big.

[Gurgi]

13 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Why would we want to sign guys likely to suck for extended periods?

I know you are not being obtuse.  No one wants to sign players that suck its just that if the players we sign dont produce they are going to give them every possible chance to play.  I think it must be intentional policy of Elias.  And the only way it makes sense is that this will be a multi year technique.  To generate trust in vet players we might want to sign.  Their agents will know the Orioles are serious about letting them play.   Like the opposite of what the Yankees might do.    It fits pretty well with how Odor was treated last year.  It fits how Frazier is being treated.  The agent community will remember this stuff.  

[Alasdaire]

5 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Like I said, that isn't an honest question at that point.  You just want to keep Povich. 

My equivalent would be what if you knew Povich was going to need Thoracic Outlet surgery?  Would you make the deal?

I would have zero expectations for a guy with TOS. Nasty nerve injury that usually happens to older guys like Strasburg. Tommy John is much more manageable since guys are younger.