Arm injury for Bautista?

[MarCakes21]

3 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Do you think he'd be able to preform at a high level with the injury?

Don't know until you find out.  But again, what's the harm in finding out?  If he spends a month on the IL, then goes to rehab for a week, and has immense pain, then shut him down.  If there's no pain, and he's effective, then give him a shot the last week of the season to make the playoff roster.

No one has said it was torn through.  If it was, he'd be off for surgery now.

[MarCakes21]

19 minutes ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

I have exactly both.  A fractured elbow (chip the size of a quarter) and a torn UCL.  The chip is just floating around in the middle of the ligaments.

 

The torn UCL is always a pain but as long as I don't throw a baseball or football throw?  It is fine.

 

i can lift weights and throw underhand.....as in I can bowl.  And bowl fine 20 games a week.  Because it is an underhand motion. 

Anything throwing over hand?

 

Impossible.  Immediate pain.  I shouldn't even say pain.  I mean shooting pain.

 

To expect Felix to throw 100 MPH in a month or so?  I think that is twilight zone stuff. 

 

Not gonna happen.

Isn't there a difference between a strain and a tear through?  If you have no UCL, i'm sure it's immediate pain.  What about if it's just "pulled" or strained.

[Birds08]

Sort of surprised the more advanced testing isn't completed yet? I assume it is they just don't want to disclose yet for whatever reason.

[banks703]

50 minutes ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

I have exactly both.  A fractured elbow (chip the size of a quarter) and a torn UCL.  The chip is just floating around in the middle of the ligaments.

 

The torn UCL is always a pain but as long as I don't throw a baseball or football throw?  It is fine.

 

i can lift weights and throw underhand.....as in I can bowl.  And bowl fine 20 games a week.  Because it is an underhand motion. 

Anything throwing over hand?

 

Impossible.  Immediate pain.  I shouldn't even say pain.  I mean shooting pain.

 

To expect Felix to throw 100 MPH in a month or so?  I think that is twilight zone stuff. 

 

Not gonna happen.

Damn. I sympathize. My elbow issues started with a fractured elbow from my (now 175 lb) Mastiff puppy rolling off of my bed. I’m a left-side sleeper, he was snuggled up under my right arm, my left arm extended to hand off of the bed. He either fell or tried to get down from the bed and hyperextended my elbow. The fractured healed in like three weeks, went back to lifting with no issues. I woke up one day and legitimately could not lift a cup of coffee to sip.

No UCL issue for me, thankfully. I dealt with a torn bicep tendon in my throwing arm from my front foot slipping on wet outfield grass during a throw in softball about ten years back. That was also not awesome.

I hope you heal up, brother. Getting old sucks. 

[OnlyOneOriole]

38 minutes ago, MarCakes21 said:

Isn't there a difference between a strain and a tear through?  If you have no UCL, i'm sure it's immediate pain.  What about if it's just "pulled" or strained.

It is all the same.

[OnlyOneOriole]

5 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Damn. I sympathize. My elbow issues started with a fractured elbow from my (now 175 lb) Mastiff puppy rolling off of my bed. I’m a left-side sleeper, he was snuggled up under my right arm, my left arm extended to hand off of the bed. He either fell or tried to get down from the bed and hyperextended my elbow. The fractured healed in like three weeks, went back to lifting with no issues. I woke up one day and legitimately could not lift a cup of coffee to sip.

No UCL issue for me, thankfully. I dealt with a torn bicep tendon in my throwing arm from my front foot slipping on wet outfield grass during a throw in softball about ten years back. That was also not awesome.

I hope you heal up, brother. Getting old sucks. 

 

Appreciate that.

 

Even mimicking an overhand throw hurts.  Just an easy throw.

 

Underhand is fine.

 

No way Felix can throw 100 MPH with an overhand throw this year.

 

Once the UCL is gone?  It gone.

Edited August 29, 2023 by OnlyOneOriole

[Frobby]

5 hours ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

I am flat out saying, as someone who has a UCL tear, that throwing overhand without surgery is basically impossible.

 

It does not heal. 

If I am not mistaken, there are at least a few pitchers who overcame a small UCL tear.  Masahiro Tanaka comes to mind.  https://www.nj.com/yankees/2019/02/yankees-masahiro-tanaka-opens-up-on-pitching-with-partial-tear-why-hes-feeling-better-than-usual-heading-into-spring-training.html?outputType=amp.   I don’t expect that outcome for Felix, but I don’t know the extent of his injury.  

[Aristotelian]

Here is an article about Andrew Painter. He had been diagnosed with UCL sprain (no surgery) in March. Then he ended up having surgery in July. Still, according to the article, if it's a "proximal partial tear", 17 of 19 pitchers with that injury have returned without surgery (I guess 17 of 20 after Painter!). https://theathletic.com/4385912/2023/04/06/robbie-ray-kenta-maeda-mlb-injuries/

Apparently Degrom had a partial tear in 2011, was diagnosed 4 months rest, then ended up having surgery.

https://www.si.com/mlb/mets/news/jacob-degrom-injury-surgery-memory-new-york-mets-texas-rangers-matt9#:~:text=He felt a tug in,and missed all of 2011.

Seems like the decision here if it is a partial tear is whether you try the non-surgical rehab to get him back in 2024, with the risk that it doesn't work and you either end up having surgery later, or a reinjury soon after coming back. If you do the TJ now, you at least have some assurance he will be back by 2025.

[Aristotelian]

1 minute ago, Aristotelian said:

Here is an article about Andrew Painter. He had been diagnosed with UCL sprain (no surgery) in March. Then he ended up having surgery in July. Still, according to the article, if it's a "proximal partial tear", 17 of 19 pitchers with that injury have returned without surgery (I guess 17 of 20 after Painter!). https://theathletic.com/4385912/2023/04/06/robbie-ray-kenta-maeda-mlb-injuries/

Apparently Degrom had a partial tear in 2011, was diagnosed 4 months rest, then ended up having surgery.

https://www.si.com/mlb/mets/news/jacob-degrom-injury-surgery-memory-new-york-mets-texas-rangers-matt9#:~:text=He felt a tug in,and missed all of 2011.

Seems like the decision here if it is a partial tear is whether you try the non-surgical rehab to get him back in 2024, with the risk that it doesn't work and you either end up having surgery later, or a reinjury soon after coming back. If you do the TJ now, you at least have some assurance he will be back by 2025.

Oops, here is the Painter article. https://www.mlb.com/news/andrew-painter-has-ucl-sprain#:~:text=-- Andrew Painter does not,Twins in Fort Myers%2C Fla.

 

[interloper]

Just get the surgery. 

[crowmst3k!]

15 hours ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

How do you post a pic here? 

Upload a downloaded picture.  

Not sure if the HTML code will allow for image embedding.  Guess I'll try:  

<img src="https://orthopedicspecialistsofseattle.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Tommy-John-image-for-article-300x300.gif">

Edit: apparently not.

But, you can just post the image link:

Edited August 29, 2023 by crowmst3k!

[interloper]

Posting an image on OH from Windows:

1. Right-click on the image you want to post. 

2. Click "Copy Image"

3. CTRL-V

[Tony-OH]

16 hours ago, MarCakes21 said:

Don't know until you find out.  But again, what's the harm in finding out?  If he spends a month on the IL, then goes to rehab for a week, and has immense pain, then shut him down.  If there's no pain, and he's effective, then give him a shot the last week of the season to make the playoff roster.

No one has said it was torn through.  If it was, he'd be off for surgery now.

I tend to believe this as well. If it's a grade 1 sprain, they could very much go with a rehab approach, but I would be pleasantly shocked if they started him back up this year after reading through the UCL discussions and rehab, even with a grade 1 sprain.

Either way, if it was torn he'd be in the surgery room already IMHO. 

[Tony-OH]

3 hours ago, Aristotelian said:

Here is an article about Andrew Painter. He had been diagnosed with UCL sprain (no surgery) in March. Then he ended up having surgery in July. Still, according to the article, if it's a "proximal partial tear", 17 of 19 pitchers with that injury have returned without surgery (I guess 17 of 20 after Painter!). https://theathletic.com/4385912/2023/04/06/robbie-ray-kenta-maeda-mlb-injuries/

Apparently Degrom had a partial tear in 2011, was diagnosed 4 months rest, then ended up having surgery.

 

This is my worse fear. They rehab him and then in spring training next year it doesn't help and he's off to surgery. Now a season and half is done vs one season if he does it now. I certainly don't have all the details so I don't have a strong opinion other than if it's even close to a tear they should just get the surgery and not risk losing him for part of 2025.

[Sanfran327]

24 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

This is my worse fear. They rehab him and then in spring training next year it doesn't help and he's off to surgery. Now a season and half is done vs one season if he does it now. I certainly don't have all the details so I don't have a strong opinion other than if it's even close to a tear they should just get the surgery and not risk losing him for part of 2025.

I'm sure it's been said plenty of times in this thread already, but they're going to have to wait for inflammation to go down before they can even get a really good idea of the extent of the damage and the appropriate course of action. 

And while QBs and pitchers that throw 102 MPH are two different animals, I had the same exact thought with Brock Purdy that you have about Bautista. Don't try to get cute and figure out a workaround. Just bite the bullet, miss the season, and come back ready to rock in 2025. Purdy and QBs a) throw a heavier ball and b) don't put nearly the same amount of pressure directly on the UCL that pitchers do, so I'm a lot more confident in the UCL brace procedure that he did than I would ever be for any pitcher. But medical technology is constantly evolving, so maybe they figure out a way (or a modified way) for this to work for pitchers as well.