If Elias told Holliday right now that he was in line to play 2B/backup CF?

[Sports Guy]

14 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Again, I am not pressing this, just playing Devil's Advocate here. But if we were looking to play Holliday in CF, I think the idea would be as a primary CF. Mullins repeated last year's .721, but struggled with injuries and was really bad in August and Sept, and of course 0 for the playoffs. I can't speak for wildcard, but my thinking would be if Holliday were to prepare to play there, it would be in more than a backup role, likely because Mullins is continuing on a downward trajectory. 

The frustrating part about Mullins is that he was excellent prior to his injury, especially the second time around.

But after that, he was terrible although the defense was solid.

His value will be down, so I can’t see trading him. They missed that boat. Now we have to hope that he can be healthy and have a solid year next year and then deal him next offseason.

[Frobby]

13 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Again, I am not pressing this, just playing Devil's Advocate here. But if we were looking to play Holliday in CF, I think the idea would be as a primary CF. Mullins repeated last year's .721, but struggled with injuries and was really bad in August and Sept, and of course 0 for the playoffs. I can't speak for wildcard, but my thinking would be if Holliday were to prepare to play there, it would be in more than a backup role, likely because Mullins is continuing on a downward trajectory. 

I’m giving Mullins something of a Mullins-agan (see what I did there?).  I think the injuries really disrupted his season and may have still been bothering him down the stretch.  To recap, Mullins got off to a slow start this year but then got hot and had hit .908 OPS in the 42 games prior to his first IL trip.  Then he had a .387 OPS in his first 10 games back, but heated up again and had a 1.167 OPS in 6 games before his second IL stint.  He never really did heat up after returning.   So both times he got hurt, it disrupted a pretty good hot streak.  He was able to recover after an Initial cold spell the first time, not so much the second time.  I feel like if he’s healthy in 2024, his offense will return to form.  (Meaning, 107 OPS+ or so, as in 2022.  His OPS was the same the last two years, but 2023 was a much better hitting environment league-wide so his OPS+ slipped from 107 to 100 this year.)

[OriolesMagic83]

1 hour ago, forphase1 said:

He was optioned 4 times,  the first being early July.  That was part of his value,  obviously,  or it wouldn't have happened.  That's now gone. We will see if the Os think he has enough value/talent to be stuck in the MLB roster all year.   I don't think he does,  but the decision isn't mine of course.  but we have to have a viable option to back up Mullins, and I'm really not sure who that'll be.   I really don't love any of our current choices.

O's will be looking to find the next McKenna.  With the loss of options and a higher salary, I don't see him back either.

[wildcard]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

The line of questions posed by the OP seems to be the type of logic that would be used to keep Holliday off of the Opening Day roster or to artificially try to place another player in front of him to give that player a looksie. I have never heard of evaluating a top prospects based on whether or not he can back up a position that he has never played before. Back up players by their definition don't have to be great, serviceable is usually the barometer for success. I have not heard of any org evaluating the #1 prospect at that time with regards to his abilities as a backup. That's a total waste of the players potential/value.

Also, Mullins while having a poor September/October, should not need to be a platoon player. If his availability will be next year what it was this year (often injured), he should probably under consideration for replacement. But to expect Holliday to play anywhere close to the caliber of defense in CF (as a rookie) that Mullins plays, IMO is a unnecessary hurdle for him to have to climb. Again, nobody treats top tier prospects that way.

Seems like you are not paying attention to what the O's do.  They like their players to play multiple positions.   Gunnar SS/3B,  Westburg 2B/3B, Ortiz 2B/SS/3B, Frazier 2B/LF. O'Hearn  1B/COF, Urias 3b/2B/1B.    If Gunnar is going to play the majority of games at SS that means Holliday is not going to be at SS the majority of his games.   Holliday is at a minimum 2B/SS.   

I asked the question about Holliday at CF because  Mullins needs a backup.  Preferably one that is fast.   The general response is not Holliday in CF.  I can accept that.   But the O's still need a fast backup for Center.    Westburg is not a bad idea to try.  Maybe it just falls to Cowser though he did not look good there last year.

Edited October 16, 2023 by wildcard

[tntoriole]

35 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I’m giving Mullins something of a Mullins-agan (see what I did there?).  I think the injuries really disrupted his season and may have still been bothering him down the stretch.  To recap, Mullins got off to a slow start this year but then got hot and had hit .908 OPS in the 42 games prior to his first IL trip.  Then he had a .387 OPS in his first 10 games back, but heated up again and had a 1.167 OPS in 6 games before his second IL stint.  He never really did heat up after returning.   So both times he got hurt, it disrupted a pretty good hot streak.  He was able to recover after an Initial cold spell the first time, not so much the second time.  I feel like if he’s healthy in 2024, his offense will return to form.  (Meaning, 107 OPS+ or so, as in 2022.  His OPS was the same the last two years, but 2023 was a much better hitting environment league-wide so his OPS+ slipped from 107 to 100 this year.)

I hope so … but this injury , R adductor group injury, was the same one basically that recurred.  
Playing with this subsequently (if that was it) may well make the long term recovery more difficult. Adductor strains have a significant risk of chronic recurrences in high performance speed types going forward and he is not getting younger either.  He will need a very specific recovery and strengthening rehab program in the offseason 

[tntoriole]

I wonder if the once in a long time phenoms career desire plays into this at all.  We went through this with Machado who clearly preferred ss though 3b was the choice.

Is Gunnar a better SS defensively than Jackson?  I assume he must be but I am just asking as I don’t know the answer.  
 

Westburg is not my fav choice at 3b.. if Jackson and Gunnar were pick em at SS, then Gunnar 3rd , Jackson ss and Westburg 2nd would be my preference. 

[Aristotelian]

43 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I’m giving Mullins something of a Mullins-agan (see what I did there?).  I think the injuries really disrupted his season and may have still been bothering him down the stretch.  To recap, Mullins got off to a slow start this year but then got hot and had hit .908 OPS in the 42 games prior to his first IL trip.  Then he had a .387 OPS in his first 10 games back, but heated up again and had a 1.167 OPS in 6 games before his second IL stint.  He never really did heat up after returning.   So both times he got hurt, it disrupted a pretty good hot streak.  He was able to recover after an Initial cold spell the first time, not so much the second time.  I feel like if he’s healthy in 2024, his offense will return to form.  (Meaning, 107 OPS+ or so, as in 2022.  His OPS was the same the last two years, but 2023 was a much better hitting environment league-wide so his OPS+ slipped from 107 to 100 this year.)

Agreed, but he was bad enough that we should have a good Plan B in place should it continue. How long of a leash does he get if he comes out still hitting .600ish? 

[Frobby]

36 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

O's will be looking to find the next McKenna.  With the loss of options and a higher salary, I don't see him back either.

How much higher would his salary really be?  He’s under three years of service time, and if he qualifies as a Super 2, it will be just barely.  Nether MLBTR nor Cots is projecting any significant raise for him.  The lack of options is an issue.
 

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Agreed, but he was bad enough that we should have a good Plan B in place should it continue. How long of a leash does he get if he comes out still hitting .600ish? 

Roughly two months.  

[Roll Tide]

21 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Seems like you are not paying attention to what the O's do.  They like their players to play multiple positions.   Gunnar SS/3B,  Westburg 2B/3B, Ortiz 2B/SS/3B, Frazier 2B/LF. O'Hearn  1B/COF, Urias 3b/2B/1B.    If Gunnar is going to play the majority of games at SS that means Holliday is not going to be at SS the majority of his games.   Holliday is at a minimum 2B/SS.   

I asked the question about Holliday at CF because  Mullins needs a backup.  Preferably one that is fast.   The general response is not Holliday in CF.  I can accept that.   But the O's still need a fast backup for Center.    Westburg is not a bad idea to try.  Maybe it just falls to Cowser though he did not look good there last year.

They could just as easily leave Gunnar at 3B and put Holiday at SS

[Frobby]

3 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

They could just as easily leave Gunnar at 3B and put Holiday at SS

There have been questions raised by at least one poster who’s seen a lot of Holliday as to whether he’s a major league quality SS defensively.  Even if he is, I don’t think he’ll play SS unless he’s as good or better than Gunnar there.  

[btdart20]

I wouldn't be shocked to see a similar approach to the backup CF that we saw with 1B last offseason.  A few waiver claims and attempts to sneak through and 1 or 2 guys with a "big" MiLB contract $.  We'll scratch our heads and wonder why and note how dumb the whole thing is because all of them will be 'meh'.  And with any luck, we won't have to cash in the Cedric Insurance policy and we will "prove" to be correct that the contract was just ridiculous.  

 

Regarding the point of the OP:  I highly doubt Holliday is asked.  Hays/HIcks, Cowser, and Players X, Y, and Z are all ahead of Holliday in the CF depth chart.  But if asked, he's a baller and would soldier on.  Whatever it takes to get his bat in the lineup.

[Sports Guy]

Luis Robert can be our back up CFer next year.

[foxfield]

14 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Luis Robert can be our back up CFer next year.

Someone already mentioned that a few times…

[Bemorewins]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

Seems like you are not paying attention to what the O's do.  They like their players to play multiple positions.   Gunnar SS/3B,  Westburg 2B/3B, Ortiz 2B/SS/3B, Frazier 2B/LF. O'Hearn  1B/COF, Urias 3b/2B/1B.    If Gunnar is going to play the majority of games at SS that means Holliday is not going to be at SS the majority of his games.   Holliday is at a minimum 2B/SS.   

I asked the question about Holliday at CF because  Mullins needs a backup.  Preferably one that is fast.   The general response is not Holliday in CF.  I can accept that.   But the O's still need a fast backup for Center.    Westburg is not a bad idea to try.  Maybe it just falls to Cowser though he did not look good there last year.

Doesn't it make more sense to have Holliday playing 2B/SS as opposed to a position that he has never played before professionally in CF? SS/2B require a similar skill set. CF is not similar IMO.

Holliday will already need to make the adjustments necessary in his jump in competition to the Bigs. Why make it harder for him by asking him to learn a new position just so that he can be a backup?

IMO, in the order of priorities/importance for the Baltimore Orioles in 2024 and going forward into the immediate future, the development of Holliday into an impact player/bat at the big league level is much more significant/important than who is the back up CF.