If Elias told Holliday right now that he was in line to play 2B/backup CF?

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Moose Milligan said:

I agree.  Seems like people want to trade prospects but at the same time it's like...NO, not THOSE prospects.  

We're in uncharted territory here, some don't seem to get it...yes, it's nice to have a lot of good prospects, a great farm system...but we can't keep all these guys.  

And we also need to win. And prospects help you in win in 2 different ways…via performance or trade value.

And it’s not that I’m against making Westburg more versatile, it’s just that I don’t see the need to push it.

[emmett16]

7 hours ago, DirtyBird said:

Do you really think that the 30 best fielding center fielders hold those 30 jobs?

Pretty darn close.  

[Moose Milligan]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

And we also need to win. And prospects help you in win in 2 different ways…via performance or trade value.

And it’s not that I’m against making Westburg more versatile, it’s just that I don’t see the need to push it.

That's right, I don't mind Westburg being more versatile it just doesn't seem like it should be a high priority.

 

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Moose Milligan said:

That's right, I don't mind Westburg being more versatile it just doesn't seem like it should be a high priority.

 

Let the guy focus on second and third and hitting. I think it says a lot that the Os didn’t even try to put him in the OF when he was here.,and that was with Hicks being hurt a lot, Mullins out/not effective and McKenna being a zero at the plate for the most part.

 

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Let the guy focus on second and third and hitting. I think it says a lot that the Os didn’t even try to put him in the OF when he was here.,and that was with Hicks being hurt a lot, Mullins out/not effective and McKenna being a zero at the plate for the most part.

 

Yep, and don't forget that they tried Mateo out there, too.

 

[Frobby]

7 hours ago, DirtyBird said:

Do you really think that the 30 best fielding center fielders hold those 30 jobs?

 

12 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

Pretty darn close.  

Oh, I doubt it.  I think there are probably a lot of center fielders out there who are better defensively than many of the major league starting CFs, but just can't hit enough to hold down a major league starting job.  Obviously the guys who start in CF are generally very good fielders, but for the most part, they also can hit decently.

[Aristotelian]

23 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Let the guy focus on second and third and hitting. I think it says a lot that the Os didn’t even try to put him in the OF when he was here.,and that was with Hicks being hurt a lot, Mullins out/not effective and McKenna being a zero at the plate for the most part.

 

I wouldn't read much into their usage of Westburg in '23. How many starts did McKenna make there after Westburg's promotion? If working him out in OF in the offseason could help the team, it's at least something to consider. Makes a lot more sense than messing with Holliday, IMO. 

Especially if they do as you suggest and trade Santander and/or Hays, they will have a lot of question marks in OF. Having another option wouldn't be a bad idea. Especially for CF. 

[DirtyBird]

13 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Oh, I doubt it.  I think there are probably a lot of center fielders out there who are better defensively than many of the major league starting CFs, but just can't hit enough to hold down a major league starting job.  Obviously the guys who start in CF are generally very good fielders, but for the most part, they also can hit decently.

This is common sense

[CaptainRedbeard]

46 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I agree.  Seems like people want to trade prospects but at the same time it's like...NO, not THOSE prospects.  

We're in uncharted territory here, some don't seem to get it...yes, it's nice to have a lot of good prospects, a great farm system...but we can't keep all these guys.  

At a minimum this offseason it makes sense to trade one of Westburg and Ortiz, and probably one of Cowser and Kjerstad if they aren’t trading a vet OF/corner bat. And both Norby and Stowers if a team is willing to pay for them as potential starters. But the Orioles already blew through one trade deadline where they should have at least traded Mateo or Urias (or DFA’d Mateo) in order to make space for Ortiz when they didn’t.

I don’t have a lot of confidence they are going to find a trade for a number of reasons, but especially since they only thing they need to trade for is higher level SP and quality SP are very rarely available. It was the exact same last offseason, even after the FA market dried up and the Orioles passed/missed on every SP except Gibson, and the only guy they could trade for was Irvin because the A’s were one of very few sellers. I can’t recall any SP who were traded across the league other than Irvin and Pablo Lopez, and I don’t believe any were traded for a return of prospects similar to the quality of those that it makes sense for the Orioles to move.

If they aren’t able to find a trade where they feel like they are finding appropriate value for their assets, they are going to have to square peg round hole it one way or another. Either by trading players for 70 cents on the dollar or by shifting positions for some prospects around (or keeping them in AAA longer than necessary) so that they can buy time to work out which ones are starters and which aren’t going to pan out.

It’s easy to say they’ll make a trade but what will the team look like if they don’t? The Orioles have presumably been in the market to trade prospects for SP for a while now and they haven’t been able to. 

[emmett16]

53 minutes ago, Frobby said:

 

Oh, I doubt it.  I think there are probably a lot of center fielders out there who are better defensively than many of the major league starting CFs, but just can't hit enough to hold down a major league starting job.  Obviously the guys who start in CF are generally very good fielders, but for the most part, they also can hit decently.

After you get past the top 5 or 6 CFers in MLB the offense drops off pretty significantly.  The majority of CFers are defensive first player with just a handful of guys carrying a wRC+ > 100.  

[Big Al]

4 hours ago, DirtyBird said:

Or because the ROY has a spot on the left side of the infield, the #1 prospect in baseball is an infielder, and there is another prospect who is the best infield glove in the system.

That’s why by the All Star break, I hope to see Gunnar at 3b, Ortiz at SS, Holliday at 2b and Westburg as utility infielder. 

[foxfield]

The questions the Orioles will have to answer are no way as linear as this discussion. 
 

The Orioles are blessed with terrific infield depth. 
 

They happen to be pretty deep in the OF as well. 
 

These are good problems to have. 
 

As the Os move forward some decisions will be made due to time constraints. Some will be made to increase offense. All will be made to maximize defense. 
 

All of that is before they begin to make decisions on how to improve starting pitching and their bullpen. 
 

I don’t think the first thing they calculate is whether Westburg goes to the OF or if Holliday does. 
 

Holliday is coming when they think his bat is ready to make Baltimore more competitive. If that is 2b then so be it. Of that’s OF or DH then that’s where it will be. 
 

But this team is going to be different next year. There are assets that are currently in possession that will begin to decline in value. Whether that’s Hays, Santander or Mountcastle or whether it’s Ortiz, Westburg or Stowers. 
 

There will be a bunch of moving parts and they each could effect another. 
 

We should be thrilled to be here and it will be fascinating to see it unfold. But we should not think that all of this will become clear before spring. Some of this is going to take until 25. 
 

Elias has his work cut out for him. But he is well positioned to figure it out. How he goes from here is going to determine whether he is a good GM or not. 
 

Personally I’d like 2SP a closer and a bat. We have the payroll to work it on the Orioles terms and we have the capital to do it as well. But there are many ways to improve on last year without going all in like the Mets or Padres. Success comes from being smart and being lucky. The good news is I think our guys are smart. 

[OriolesMagic83]

10 hours ago, wildcard said:

Seems like you are not paying attention to what the O's do.  They like their players to play multiple positions.   Gunnar SS/3B,  Westburg 2B/3B, Ortiz 2B/SS/3B, Frazier 2B/LF. O'Hearn  1B/COF, Urias 3b/2B/1B.    If Gunnar is going to play the majority of games at SS that means Holliday is not going to be at SS the majority of his games.   Holliday is at a minimum 2B/SS.   

I asked the question about Holliday at CF because  Mullins needs a backup.  Preferably one that is fast.   The general response is not Holliday in CF.  I can accept that.   But the O's still need a fast backup for Center.    Westburg is not a bad idea to try.  Maybe it just falls to Cowser though he did not look good there last year.

How bad did Mateo look in the outfield.  He only got in there a couple of games.  I never saw him play OF myself.  I don't mind keeping Mateo as a utility guy, but he's got to do a lot more than back up SS,

[DirtyBird]

10 hours ago, wildcard said:

Seems like you are not paying attention to what the O's do.  They like their players to play multiple positions.   Gunnar SS/3B,  Westburg 2B/3B, Ortiz 2B/SS/3B, Frazier 2B/LF. O'Hearn  1B/COF, Urias 3b/2B/1B.    If Gunnar is going to play the majority of games at SS that means Holliday is not going to be at SS the majority of his games.   Holliday is at a minimum 2B/SS.   

I asked the question about Holliday at CF because  Mullins needs a backup.  Preferably one that is fast.   The general response is not Holliday in CF.  I can accept that.   But the O's still need a fast backup for Center.    Westburg is not a bad idea to try.  Maybe it just falls to Cowser though he did not look good there last year.

Is that what they like, or is that just what they did due to the dynamics of the roster?

If Urias, Mateo or Frazier were everyday quality players, there wouldn’t have been the position shuffling.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, DirtyBird said:

Is that what they like, or is that just what they did due to the dynamics of the roster?

If Urias, Mateo or Frazier were everyday quality players, there wouldn’t have been the position shuffling.

Elias has said enough about positional flexibility that I think you would have seen a fair bit of it anyway.