Rosenthal: Holt had trouble communicating with pitchers

[wildcard]

2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I just found the whole "struggled to communicate" thing a bit weird.  I don't know how much I believe that, but I don't think Rosenthal reports stuff if he doesn't think the source is credible.  He's pretty good at what he does.

The Orioles had good results last year, better than expected...and as pointed out, they got really good performances from a number of guys that weren't expected to do much.

I guess the way I'm looking at it is that I'm glad that Holt is still with the organization and I'm assuming whoever they hire for the ML pitching coach will be someone that's been thoroughly vetted by Elias, Holt and Hyde and shares philosophies on how things should be done.  

The voice of reason.

[Moose Milligan]

Just now, wildcard said:

The voice of reason.

Never!

[Frobby]

18 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Did you document that or are you pulling that out of your butt?

What do you think?

[Sports Guy]

Like anything else, there were probably pitchers Holt got along with and others they didn’t.

Coaches don’t tend to hang around for long for many reasons. That’s just the way it is.

I have zero doubt something was up with Holt but I also have zero doubt that he is very good and I’m glad he’s still here. He’s not what wildcard thinks he is though.

[Just Regular]

There's just never going to be one nerd fluent in English, Spanish and Japanese with active day-to-day expertise in all the different arm angles the Clubs are cultivating in the Arm Barn so Gunnar Henderson sees something different in all 694 of his plate appearances, including the other guy's Danny Coulombe twice a night.     

I'm a little surprised we got to Page 2 without the tinfoli hat process beginning in earnest who Rosenthal's "anonymous for candor" sources were.

Nobody cares if it was Jack Flaherty or Shintaro Fujinami.     It probably wasn't Grayson Rodriguez, right?

[vab]

"Holmey"? When a nickname is longer than the person's actual name it's just wrong. 

[interloper]

Honestly, for an Orioles off-season article, this is about as chill as it gets. We'll have to suffer much worse articles before next season, as is tradition.

Not much to really see here IMO. 

[LookinUp]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

When Holt walked to the mound to give advice to the pitcher, 9 times out of 10 the pitcher did better.   That does not look like a communication problem to me.

#data

57 minutes ago, Just Regular said:

There's just never going to be one nerd fluent in English, Spanish and Japanese with active day-to-day expertise in all the different arm angles the Clubs are cultivating in the Arm Barn so Gunnar Henderson sees something different in all 694 of his plate appearances, including the other guy's Danny Coulombe twice a night.     

I'm a little surprised we got to Page 2 without the tinfoli hat process beginning in earnest who Rosenthal's "anonymous for candor" sources were.

Nobody cares if it was Jack Flaherty or Shintaro Fujinami.     It probably wasn't Grayson Rodriguez, right?

We need to add a special rep button for Just Regular. It stands for "up vote, but I'm not quite sure what it meant, I just know I liked it" post.

[RZNJ]

2 hours ago, wildcard said:

When Holt walked to the mound to give advice to the pitcher, 9 times out of 10 the pitcher did better.   That does not look like a communication problem to me.

That sounds like some really in depth analysis.  Thank you.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, RZNJ said:

That sounds like some really in depth analysis.  Thank you.

Hey now, he watched a ton of film in a span of less than an hour, show some respect for the work!

[RZNJ]

Bad communication worked pretty well.  Maybe if the pitchers understand what the pitching coach wants they’ll do worse.  
 

[btdart20]

I don't think Holt got a demotion.  I think Holt is good at the analytics and identifying issues.  And he seems good at the how-to solutions/paths to improvement (conditioning, pitch mix, spin, angle, IVB, adding a pitch, etc.) for specific types of pitchers.  There's a ton of science, physics, math, biomechanics, etc. involved in taking the pitchers into the realm of analytics.  I think Holt has a solid grasp on that stuff.  

Plus, I wouldn't be shocked if Elias comes to him with scouting/trade options.  Stepping in the new role would free up more time for that type of thing.

Based on what Gibson said and even the new role itself, Holt may struggle communicating 'why' all the nerdy stuff matters in a way that connects with people/pitchers.  And that's a big piece of hands-on coaching.  Especially when we're integrating next level analytics.  And then toss in a few different native tongues.

[btdart20]

1 hour ago, Just Regular said:

There's just never going to be one nerd fluent in English, Spanish and Japanese with active day-to-day expertise in all the different arm angles the Clubs are cultivating in the Arm Barn so Gunnar Henderson sees something different in all 694 of his plate appearances, including the other guy's Danny Coulombe twice a night.     

I'm a little surprised we got to Page 2 without the tinfoli hat process beginning in earnest who Rosenthal's "anonymous for candor" sources were.

Nobody cares if it was Jack Flaherty or Shintaro Fujinami.     It probably wasn't Grayson Rodriguez, right?

Cough cough Hyde cough...  

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

Let’s put it this way…the Os aren’t making a change here unless something is going on.

We saw that results were good…so why would you change?!

I don't know exactly, but reading the tea leaves here a bit, perhaps they want Holt to use his skills with the younger prospects coming up and feel that now guys are a bit established and may not benefit as much.

 

Quote

The Orioles’ goal, according to a source briefed on the club’s thinking, is to provide different messaging to their younger pitchers as they mature.

Reading that also may indicate that Holt may be better at developing than sustaining. I honestly don't know, but the fact he was moved to the director of pitcher rather than fired indicates to me they just think he's more valuable in the other role.

I thought Gibson's comments were interesting as well. He said he thought everyone had his back but maybe not everyone liked him. The only situation that jumps out to me is how Grayson Rodriguez failed so miserably during his first stint with the Orioles, and seemed to get fixed in AAA under Ramsey. 

Overall though with pitchers like McDermott, Povich, DeLeon, and Baumeister having high ceiling arms, along with the fact the Orioles drafted more arms in the top ten rounds, maybe they just want him to focused on development rather than sustaining the arms that have arrived?

[Sports Guy]

30 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I don't know exactly, but reading the tea leaves here a bit, but perhaps they want Holt to use his skills with the younger prospects coming up and feel that now guys are a bit established and may not benefit as much.

 

Reading that also may indicate that Holt may be better at developing than sustaining. I honestly don't know, but the fact he was moved to the director of pitcher rather than fired indicates to me they just think he's more valuable in the other role.

I thought Gibson's comments were interesting as well. He said he thought everyone had his back but maybe not everyone liked him. The only situation that jumps out to me is how Grayson Rodriguez failed so miserably during his first stint with the Orioles, and seemed to get fixed in AAA under Ramsey. 

Overall though with pitchers like McDermott, Povich, DeLeon, and Baumeister having high ceiling arms, along with the fact the Orioles drafted more arms in the top ten rounds, maybe they just want him to focused on development rather than sustaining the arms that have arrived?

I think every coach likely has their own strengths and weaknesses.

What you describe is very possible. Maybe his way of doing things is better for development but not the ML level?  
 

Either way, it’s good that’s he’s staying here but I wouldn’t just discount anything that is being said here. Probably some truth to it.