Jackson Holliday 2024

[Sports Guy]

11 minutes ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

I mean I don't know what else to add to this. It is spot on.  Holliday is the expendable one now. 

JH was here for a month and looked horrible.  No one expected him to be Manny starting out, but he looked like a little kid.  Not elite.  In no way shape or form do the Os, or much of anyone else in baseballs inner circles after seeing that...think of him as the next 'coming'.

A good player yes.  But not a superstar. He has major flaws and we all saw it...whether some want to admit it or not,  Starting with his batting stance and swing. 

You trade him now for something we really need.  Cheap, controllable starting pitching.

This should not even be a question. 

He was here for 2 weeks. For a “day trader”, your math is awful.

[Sports Guy]

 

[OnlyOneOriole]

32 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

He was here for 2 weeks. For a “day trader”, your math is awful.

As a day trader we sometimes have to make decisions sometimes within seconds. 

 

So yeah.

[Bemorewins]

2 hours ago, banks703 said:

I'm not sure who these posts are targeting but I think that you are trying to convince an entire message board of things that the overwhelming consensus already know.

I've had similar arguments with other posters in the past where they contested that JH is a SS because he was drafted as a SS or he wouldn't be the top ranked prospect if he was anything other than a SS. Neither of those things are true. Cleveland actually just took a 2B with the #1 overall pick in this year's draft... and JH is now a 2B... so.. 

The O's dealing from a surplus of talent, specifically MI prospects, more specifically a guy who is currently rated the top overall  in the game, doesn't have to mean that anyone is down on the player. It just means that with the right return, anyone is available.

I promise that Mike Elias is not going to impede the progress of the organization, which at this time in their tenure/rebuild, is to compete for a World Series... for any one player. The O's may have two middle infield All-Stars penciled into their lineup for the next five years, who came up together and have a great rapport. Perhaps that is enough for them to let go of JH should the right deal come along. As I mentioned in earlier posts, perhaps they see the window with Burnes this year and know that they need another top half rotation starter to compete for a championship and they are prepared to pull out all stops to do that. Perhaps JH headlining a deal for a TOR starter with two years of control beyond this year means that they don't have to trade either of their other top 5. Perhaps Detroit prefers JH and it's just a matter of everything just lining up better with JH headlining a deal for Skubal. None of the above would mean definitively that anyone is down on JH. 

Anyone who has changed their opinion of a 20 year old kid just because he struggled in a dozen  or so games/34 ABs at the ML level, isn't someone that should occupy space in your brain.. because it's be beyond ridiculous to believe that a dozen games/34 ABs at 20 years old is who Jackson Holliday will be a year from today, five years, ten years.. 

It's less about being down on the player and more about the other factors and realizing that in order to get a true difference-maker who could put them in better position this year to compete for a World Series (and next year and the year after) .. they would have to give up a lot.

And who knows, maybe they do nothing but given the current construction of the big club, of the top 3 prospects who will be heavily sought after in deals to acquire pitching, like it or not, JH may be the most expendable. 

 

This is where I am. As much as I love Holliday (really all of them), Mayo is probably the one that I am least likely to trade because he’s something that we have so little of a RH power bat. 

Even though Holliday and Basallo may be more valuable because of their defensive positions, IMO they are a little more expendable or should I say we already have players that play their positions/do what they do as LH bats (though they may even be better than some that we already have).

IMO in order to complete the championship puzzle picture, it is much more important for us to have better talent on the mound than to have a 8/9 hitter with a .750 > OPS. No other teams have that. But most contenders rotations are better than ours (save for MIN and CLE). 

I would really prefer not to go into October with Grayson and Kremer as our #2 and #3. We just watched that movie last year and the results were very ugly. Insanity = doing the same things and expecting a different result/outcome

[Bemorewins]

2 hours ago, Hallas said:

The idea that people think Grayson is a disappointment is so wild to me.  He's a solid #2 starter in the league in his second full big league season.  Burnes as a 24 year old had an 8.82 ERA and got demoted.

I don’t think that he is a disappointment at all unless you expected Paul Skenes.

However, he by no means is a #1 and I wouldn’t want to see him forced into that role with a Burnes departure next year.

[interloper]

1 minute ago, Bemorewins said:

I don’t think that he is a disappointment at all unless you expected Paul Skenes.

However, he by no means is a #1 and I wouldn’t want to see him forced into that role with a Burnes departure next year.

Well said. 

[Hallas]

7 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I don’t think that he is a disappointment at all unless you expected Paul Skenes.

However, he by no means is a #1 and I wouldn’t want to see him forced into that role with a Burnes departure next year.

I don't think the Pirates or Paul Skenes expected Paul Skenes.

 

I think he could easily develop into a #1 though.  It's certainly not unheard of for people to learn consistency, which is really hte only thing missing.  His K rate and BB rate are already elite, so that tells me that he already has the stuff to be a #1.

 

We don't want to enter 2025 with him as our #1 mostly because that means we've got spare parts like Albert Suarez and Dean Kremer as our 4/5.  We need a 1a or 1b to knock one of those guys down.

Edited July 19 by Hallas

[Bemorewins]

1 minute ago, Hallas said:

I don't think the Pirates or Paul Skenes expected Paul Skenes.

 

I think he could easily develop into a #1 though.  It's certainly not unheard of for people to learn consistency, which is really hte only thing missing.  His K rate and BB rate are already elite, so that tells me that he already has the stuff to be a #1.

 

We don't want to enter 2025 with him as our #1 mostly because that means we've got spare parts like Albert Suarez and Dean Kremer as our 4/5.  We need a 1a or 1b to knock one of those guys down.

He is not a #1 because he doesn’t have that type of consistent command. Will he ever get that? Maybe? Maybe not?

No I don’t want him as a #1 because he is not a number 1 point blank.

Skubal or a talented SP of that ilk solves many problems for us IMO. He gives us a devastating 1-2 punch with Burnes for this season that probably only the Phillies and Mariners (and maybe Dodgers if healthy can match). We would definitely be World Series favorites this year. And he allows us to increase the favorable matchups down the series with Grayson slotting in for a game #3 and only one of Kremer/Suarez having to start in any given series. He also protects us against a Burnes offseason departure. And he gives us some of that leverage in case we want to negotiate with Burnes to attempt to resign him.

[Earl Buck]

It seems to me that Holliday had such a head start in pro coaching and family practice facilities that his development level compared to his ceiling was further along than his competition.  So the top of the line benefits Holliday enjoyed at an earlier age than most are now starting to level out as other players are now receiving the coaching and facility excellence Holliday enjoyed his whole life. He still is among the best but not necessarily head and shoulders above and destined to achieve above all others. 
So still a great baseball career before him, but perhaps not a multiple year MVP winner. So I think he should be considered tradable for the right return just as we should for any of the top tier. 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Earl Buck said:

It seems to me that Holliday had such a head start in pro coaching and family practice facilities that his development level compared to his ceiling was further along than his competition.  So the top of the line benefits Holliday enjoyed at an earlier age than most are now starting to level out as other players are now receiving the coaching and facility excellence Holliday enjoyed his whole life. He still is among the best but not necessarily head and shoulders above and destined to achieve above all others. 
So still a great baseball career before him, but perhaps not a multiple year MVP winner. So I think he should be considered tradable for the right return just as we should for any of the top tier. 

I don't think people were anointing him a multiple MVP winner.

[Say O!]

5 minutes ago, Earl Buck said:

It seems to me that Holliday had such a head start in pro coaching and family practice facilities that his development level compared to his ceiling was further along than his competition.  So the top of the line benefits Holliday enjoyed at an earlier age than most are now starting to level out as other players are now receiving the coaching and facility excellence Holliday enjoyed his whole life. He still is among the best but not necessarily head and shoulders above and destined to achieve above all others. 
So still a great baseball career before him, but perhaps not a multiple year MVP winner. So I think he should be considered tradable for the right return just as we should for any of the top tier. 

Convenient narrative. Jackson has been 3-4yrs younger than average competition (which is quite the gap for any “early advantage” to overcome).  And given that age difference, why would anyone believe his development is over at age 20 and that Jackson would not continue to “improve” until age 24/25 like his rookie competition?

as much as OH has soured on Holliday, the scouting/ranking community has not. And it was the scouting community that vaulted Jackson to the #1 overall prospect in the game, not just darling eyes of the OH. 

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, Say O! said:

Convenient narrative. Jackson has been 3-4yrs younger than average competition (which is quite the gap for any “early advantage” to overcome).  And given that age difference, why would anyone believe his development is over at age 20 and that Jackson would not continue to “improve” until age 24/25 like his rookie competition?

as much as OH has soured on Holliday, the scouting/ranking community has not. And it was the scouting community that vaulted Jackson to the #1 overall prospect in the game, not just darling eyes of the OH. 

Well said.

Scouts get things wrong and maybe every scout is wrong about Hollidays defense, his upside, his bat, etc…maybe he’s no more than Norby. Who knows. Again, people get things wrong.

But when an entire industry agrees on something and when you hear people bring up Holliday in the same breath as Harper, in terms of best prospects of the last 10-15 years, I think we need to listen to those people and perhaps put behind us a bad 34 at bats and a bad 2 weeks of a pro career.

I have not changed any thought I have had about Holliday. I am just as positive about his impact as an MLB player as I was before the season started. 
 

 

[1fingerwillie]

7 hours ago, MDK02 said:

From everything I read/listened to, I think Skubel can be had without giving up the #1 prospect in baseball. In fact, I'd be shocked if Tigers think that we'd even give Jackson up. One of Mayo and Basallo will have to be involved, maybe even both but Jackson isn't on the table.

I expect JH is behind Mayo in any current prospect list.

[1fingerwillie]

7 hours ago, Malike said:

Even his .900 OPS at AAA isn't good enough. Last year not a single person on the board would have traded him straight up for anyone, now he's the guy to go. Okay.

Strawman argument.

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, 1fingerwillie said:

I expect JH is behind Mayo in any current prospect list.

Except he’s not