2024 Ongoing Lineup Thread

[gtman55]

Right now batting Adley 2nd is ludicrous. He can't hit --- has no power and he's too anxious at the plate to get walks these days. It's just so dumb.

And at a point give Mayo a chance. He'll never get acclimated to MLB pitching if you play him once a week.

[RZNJ]

17 minutes ago, e16bball said:

I assume he’ll get plenty of opportunity to go through the adjustment period next April. 

Right now, there are 20 games left in the season and we’re trying to win a pennant race. We’re not really in a position to give charity at-bats to a kid who has done nothing but hurt us at the ML level at bat and in the field. 

I’m a big fan of Coby and I have high hopes for him. But I think our fans have been in “build for the future” mode for so long that we’re understandably but probably excessively fixated on developing the kids. Maximizing Mayo’s development at the expense of winning games — and the other 25 guys on the roster — just isn’t where we are at the moment.

If he could at least field, that would be one thing. If he had even shown some signs of it clicking at the plate, you could probably justify it. But he just looks lost. Striking out half the time, and not even hitting the ball that hard. They’re already sticking with Jackson as an absolute black hole in the lineup, which I’m sure makes it even harder to talk themselves into forcing Mayo out there too.

Good post but that absolute black hole in the lineup had a .685 OPS in August and, I’d guess, more big hits/RBI than either Cowser or Rutschman since his recall on 7/31.

We need him to be better but he’s been better than you give him credit for.

[waroriole]

1 hour ago, casadeozo said:

Totally fair. How is he expected to start adjusting by playing every 5th day. 
 

in fairness a vast majority of those at bats were in his first call up. He went 1 for 2 in his first game back and was promptly benched for 3 games.

I don’t get why we’d want a struggling rookie on the roster in a playoff chase. It would be different if he was a good fielder or base runner. Him being here doesn’t seem to help him or the team. 

[e16bball]

27 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Good post but that absolute black hole in the lineup had a .685 OPS in August and, I’d guess, more big hits/RBI than either Cowser or Rutschman since his recall on 7/31.

We need him to be better but he’s been better than you give him credit for.

Yeah, it was a glorious first week of the return for Holliday. Since those first 7 games, it’s been a .478 OPS with a K rate north of 30%. That’s “black hole” territory for me.

Can’t argue much with your point about big hits — the kid has been timely with the knocks he’s gotten, at least.

I just get a little weary of all the “Hyde just wants to play these garbage vets because #veteranosity” stuff. The guys who have been the worst of all are kids we consider The Core: Adley, Holliday, Mayo, and Cowser in any big PA. That (along with the injuries) is what’s really causing this offense to fall short of expectations, not the much-maligned vets that Hyde “loves to play” like Urias, Mullins, Jimenez, Rivera, Slater, McCann, etc. As if Hyde would rather play several waiver-wire nobodies every game rather than just pencil in all the top prospects.

[Brooks The Great]

9 hours ago, e16bball said:

Yeah, it was a glorious first week of the return for Holliday. Since those first 7 games, it’s been a .478 OPS with a K rate north of 30%. That’s “black hole” territory for me.

Can’t argue much with your point about big hits — the kid has been timely with the knocks he’s gotten, at least.

I just get a little weary of all the “Hyde just wants to play these garbage vets because #veteranosity” stuff. The guys who have been the worst of all are kids we consider The Core: Adley, Holliday, Mayo, and Cowser in any big PA. That (along with the injuries) is what’s really causing this offense to fall short of expectations, not the much-maligned vets that Hyde “loves to play” like Urias, Mullins, Jimenez, Rivera, Slater, McCann, etc. As if Hyde would rather play several waiver-wire nobodies every game rather than just pencil in all the top prospects.

Except Hyde has done EXACTLY just that - he plays waiver wire nobodies like Rivera and Maton over Coby Mayo. And a trash trade acquisition in Jimenez (who should be on waivers) over Mayo at the DH spot as well. And Hyde played a former waiver wire pickup in O'Hearn over Kjerstad. As if O'Hearn is some sort of established star. 

O'Hearn has a .658 OPS over the past 30 days, and a .729 OPS in the 2nd half this season after a .756 in the 2nd half in 2023 - so he's had two straight seasons of significant 2nd half declines.

O'Hearn doesn't deserve to be treated as some sort of established commodity, but Hyde does so to the team's detriment.

Not playing and developing a top 10 hitting prospect in all of baseball in Mayo is irresponsible and egregiously terrible roster management by Elias and Hyde. Especially considering awful players like Rivera and Jimenez are getting playing time over him.

 

[Chelsea_Phil]

Cant argue with that analysis, but why are we so terrible with a man on third and less than two outs?  It is so grating to me to see so many ‘would be’ runs not happening. 

[maybenxtyr]

7 hours ago, Brooks The Great said:

Except Hyde has done EXACTLY just that - he plays waiver wire nobodies like Rivera and Maton over Coby Mayo. And a trash trade acquisition in Jimenez (who should be on waivers) over Mayo at the DH spot as well. And Hyde played a former waiver wire pickup in O'Hearn over Kjerstad. As if O'Hearn is some sort of established star. 

O'Hearn has a .658 OPS over the past 30 days, and a .729 OPS in the 2nd half this season after a .756 in the 2nd half in 2023 - so he's had two straight seasons of significant 2nd half declines.

O'Hearn doesn't deserve to be treated as some sort of established commodity, but Hyde does so to the team's detriment.

Not playing and developing a top 10 hitting prospect in all of baseball in Mayo is irresponsible and egregiously terrible roster management by Elias and Hyde. Especially considering awful players like Rivera and Jimenez are getting playing time over him.

 

O'Hearn is playing so much right now because he's the only 1B on the team.

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, maybenxtyr said:

O'Hearn is playing so much right now because he's the only 1B on the team.

They have really screwed up the Mayo development this year, at least as a ML asset for 2024. 

Edited September 8 by Sports Guy

[Orioles0615]

18 hours ago, e16bball said:

I assume he’ll get plenty of opportunity to go through the adjustment period next April. 

Right now, there are 20 games left in the season and we’re trying to win a pennant race. We’re not really in a position to give charity at-bats to a kid who has done nothing but hurt us at the ML level at bat and in the field. 

I’m a big fan of Coby and I have high hopes for him. But I think our fans have been in “build for the future” mode for so long that we’re understandably but probably excessively fixated on developing the kids. Maximizing Mayo’s development at the expense of winning games — and the other 25 guys on the roster — just isn’t where we are at the moment.

If he could at least field, that would be one thing. If he had even shown some signs of it clicking at the plate, you could probably justify it. But he just looks lost. Striking out half the time, and not even hitting the ball that hard. They’re already sticking with Jackson as an absolute black hole in the lineup, which I’m sure makes it even harder to talk themselves into forcing Mayo out there too.

They have a 99% chance of making the playoffs. They are in the perfect opportunity to give him at bats. Playing Mayo over a journeyman scrub like Rivera or someone like Eloy is not going to make a difference. 

[Warehouse]

7 hours ago, Brooks The Great said:

Except Hyde has done EXACTLY just that - he plays waiver wire nobodies like Rivera and Maton over Coby Mayo. And a trash trade acquisition in Jimenez (who should be on waivers) over Mayo at the DH spot as well. And Hyde played a former waiver wire pickup in O'Hearn over Kjerstad. As if O'Hearn is some sort of established star. 

O'Hearn has a .658 OPS over the past 30 days, and a .729 OPS in the 2nd half this season after a .756 in the 2nd half in 2023 - so he's had two straight seasons of significant 2nd half declines.

O'Hearn doesn't deserve to be treated as some sort of established commodity, but Hyde does so to the team's detriment.

Not playing and developing a top 10 hitting prospect in all of baseball in Mayo is irresponsible and egregiously terrible roster management by Elias and Hyde. Especially considering awful players like Rivera and Jimenez are getting playing time over him.

 

I think you are just illustrating e16bball’s point about being weary of the “#veteronosity” narrative.  The flip side of “veteronisity” is “prospect brain” and “all homegrown lineup fantasies”. 

I agree that Mayo should either play more or be in Norfolk.  However, to argue that our problems this year stem from playing O’Hearn too much doesn’t make any sense to me. You cherry pick two half seasons where he was still an above average hitter. And his underlying peripherals are more favorable than the results.

Rivera is a plus defensive third basemen that can give you league average or better at bats vs lefties.  Jimenez once ranked higher as a prospect than Kjerstad or Mayo ever did. Obviously the shine has come off and he is one dimensional but there is likely still value to be unlocked in his bat. Role players are important.

Hyde has played young players (Holliday, Cowser, etc.) a ton. Many of those young players are struggling.  Blaming #veteronisity seems misplaced.

 

[Sanity Check]

7 hours ago, Brooks The Great said:

Except Hyde has done EXACTLY just that - he plays waiver wire nobodies like Rivera and Maton over Coby Mayo. And a trash trade acquisition in Jimenez (who should be on waivers) over Mayo at the DH spot as well. And Hyde played a former waiver wire pickup in O'Hearn over Kjerstad. As if O'Hearn is some sort of established star. 

O'Hearn has a .658 OPS over the past 30 days, and a .729 OPS in the 2nd half this season after a .756 in the 2nd half in 2023 - so he's had two straight seasons of significant 2nd half declines.

O'Hearn doesn't deserve to be treated as some sort of established commodity, but Hyde does so to the team's detriment.

Not playing and developing a top 10 hitting prospect in all of baseball in Mayo is irresponsible and egregiously terrible roster management by Elias and Hyde. Especially considering awful players like Rivera and Jimenez are getting playing time over him.

 

Get over it.  Unless you haven't noticed, Coby did not hit when given his chances.  You're acting like he's delivering positive results.  Newsflash, He's not.  Lineups are not designed with man-crushes in mind.

[Sports Guy]

11 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

Get over it.  Unless you haven't noticed, Coby did not hit when given his chances.  You're acting like he's delivering positive results.  Newsflash, He's not.  Lineups are not designed with man-crushes in mind.

At no point will people on this site ever understand small sample sizes

[Just Regular]

We'll never know but I'll wonder where we'd be today if the 275/28 ratio between Urias and Mayo PA were different - basically going to Mayo on something like the '22 Adley timeline.

One of the PECOTA previews BP did a couple years ago guessed the Orioles might beat them because it seemed like Elias/Sig had that Cardinals thing where their Bats would "hit the ground running" more than typical Clubs.

Adley and Gunnar did that, but those early successes haven't seen repeated results with Westburg, Cowser, Kjerstad, Holliday or Mayo.

In Westburg and Cowser's cases, growth came.    But it looks a lot like the long term deployment choices are going to end up with 2-3 positions being papered over some during a postseason run.

The Orioles have enjoyed some good play from Urias this season as for several seasons, but in 2024 it also included an opportunity cost of acclimating Mayo to the show.    The 2023 Orioles were much greener in their first playoff appearance than they had to be.

I'm not that worried about Mayo putting up numbers in the Cowser like workload I believe he has coming his way next season, but I am worried somebody's going 1-for-10 or 2-for-20 in an upcoming Yankees series or two.

[Moose Milligan]

9 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

At no point will people on this site ever understand small sample sizes

They won’t.

They also demand that prospects come up and mash right away. 

[Warehouse]

Since August 1, below are the results between our Young Core vs. Role Vets.  Keep in mind that the Young Core’s metrics are boosted by Gunnar’s 800+ OPS in that time period.

	OPS	xOPS
Young Core	.676	.683
Role Vets	.739	.750

Young Core - Rutschman, Henderson, Cowser, Holliday, Mayo

Role Vets - O’Hearn, Urias, Mullins, Slater, Jimenez, McCann, Maton, Rivera

Not included as everyday vets - Santander, Mountcastle

Edited September 8 by Warehouse