The 2024 Trade Deadline

[Rbiggs2525]

12 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Could be worth the cost if you think he’s a starter long term but he’s so risky. 

Yeah I think the same thing. I’d baby him the rest of the regular season as much as I can to keep his innings close to 60. Then have him throw 2 innings in games we are winning in the postseason. 

[Bemorewins]

8 hours ago, Grt 2BA FL Gator said:

I’m hoping we get a mid rotation starter and a backend reliever. Nothing sexy for the starter, but someone who can keep us in games and maybe start a playoff game and could be around next year. I’m OK with a rental for the reliever. I feel if we do it this way, it will cost less in prospect capital. 

There was a time when I wanted us to try to land the big sexy starter and plug holes for next year, but honestly, I feel like you maybe pay more at the deadline. The buttoning up of the backend of the bullpen helps us more for the World Series IMO. I’d honestly be interested in two back end arms. Here’s to hoping.  

First of all, the playoffs are multiple rounds. If this “mid rotation starter “maybe starts a game in the playoffs” what are we planning to do all of the other rounds? Or do you believe that we have another early exit in store for our October future? And are you okay with that?

Also, would you be willing to elaborate on who this “mid rotation” starter could be? And what would be your plan given this kind of addition for the 2025 rotation?

[Bemorewins]

16 minutes ago, Matt Bennett said:

I’ve never really understood the idea that Ortiz had no place here. One of Ramon Urias or Jorge Mateo have played nearly everyday this year. Ortiz is certainly an upgrade over them. Of course Burnes is brilliant and I’m good with the trade. But I don’t know why we have to act like Ortiz couldn’t have helped us. Short term, he had a role playing everyday at 2B/SS/3B. The infield production would be better with him in the fold. Beyond this year, it’s easy to see a logjam form if:

1. Mayo sticks at 3B (I think he’ll gravitate towards 1B)

2. Holliday is a stud at 2B at 20/21 years old (he wasn’t yet) 

3. everyone is healthy 

But that’s a few if’s. In my opinion, not so definitive as “he had no place here” 

This is about as hindsight as can be.

How could the organization have known that Holliday would not have been ready? The only reason Mateo and Urias are playing is because Jackson Holliday is at AAA still.

If he had been ready (like just about everyone thought) what would have done then? Just leave him at AAA? 

Furthermore, would you be comfortable with a pitching staff that did not include Burnes considering Bradish and Means began the year injured and both are hurt now?

If you swapped Joey Ortiz with Corbin Burnes do you think we are still in first place? What would our record be?

[Can_of_corn]

It's literally their job to know if Holliday is ready.

[Sports Guy]

29 minutes ago, Rbiggs2525 said:

Yeah I think the same thing. I’d baby him the rest of the regular season as much as I can to keep his innings close to 60. Then have him throw 2 innings in games we are winning in the postseason. 

I think there’s a good chance he’s more valuable than Skubal for the playoffs. You can use him everyday.  And for now, you have Kimbrel who can give him days off.

[Grt 2BA FL Gator]

37 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

First of all, the playoffs are multiple rounds. If this “mid rotation starter “maybe starts a game in the playoffs” what are we planning to do all of the other rounds? Or do you believe that we have another early exit in store for our October future? And are you okay with that?

Also, would you be willing to elaborate on who this “mid rotation” starter could be? And what would be your plan given this kind of addition for the 2025 rotation?

From our recent past, I’m a fan of going and grabbing a Joe Saunders type or even Scott Feldman type. Both produced pretty well and didn’t cost too much. I’d rather that then spend too much prospect capital when it does seem like often deadline deals can backfire. So this year, it could look like Tyler Anderson or if we didn’t already kick the tires on it last year, Jack Flaherty. There are others as well. 
 

My playoff comment more accurately should have said “start a game in a playoff series” meaning they can slot in as a #3 in the playoffs. I actually don’t think Kremer is too bad of an option either and I’d rather lock things down more in the bullpen, even with all the starter injuries we’ve had. 
 

And then to me it’s a bonus if we get a 2025 year out of the starter acquisition. It looks pretty bleak to start the year right now, but I hope we can just worry about that in the offseason, maybe sign at least one mid level starter with Rubenstein money, and not overpay at the deadline here. 

Edited July 19 by Grt 2BA FL Gator

[Matt Bennett]

30 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

And what if he got hurt or wasn’t productive when he was here?  Then his value would have been very little, especially given his age.

Long term, one of Westburg or Ortiz had to go. It made perfect sense to make the move then, especially since you felt Holliday would be up at some point this year, likely sooner than later. 

 

15 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

This is about as hindsight as can be.

How could the organization have known that Holliday would not have been ready? The only reason Mateo and Urias are playing is because Jackson Holliday is at AAA still.

If he had been ready (like just about everyone thought) what would have done then? Just leave him at AAA? 

Furthermore, would you be comfortable with a pitching staff that did not include Burnes considering Bradish and Means began the year injured and both are hurt now?

If you swapped Joey Ortiz with Corbin Burnes do you think we are still in first place? What would our record be?

I'm not knocking the trade, as I said in my post. I love Burnes and hope we pony up to resign him. I just disagree with the idea Ortiz HAD to go since he had no place here. We are seeing that very obviously he had a place here this year. I've watched Urias or Mateo everyday. Holliday wasn't/isn't ready. How many 20 year olds are? Will he be ready at 21? I hope so. 

Short term = there were at-bats for Ortiz. 

Long term = It could have been a challenge to find him at-bats, if things break right. But there's uncertainty I'm not sure that other posters are acknowledging. Even then, I could envision a future of 1B = Mayo, 2B = Holliday, 3B = Ortiz/Westburg, SS = Henderson, everyday utility backing up IF/OF = Westburg/Ortiz. I know they put Westburg in the outfield a little bit in Norfolk. I wonder if that's not still in the cards if Mayo sticks at 3B? Mayo = 3B, Henderson = SS, Holliday = 2B, Westburg = everyday utility backing up IF/OF. If O'Hearn can play OF on this team I have no doubt Westburg can with his athleticism. 

[Bemorewins]

19 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

It's literally their job to know if Holliday is ready.

Even if they knew Holliday wasn’t ready and they decided not to trade Ortiz, the alternative would have probably been to trade Westburg. Would @Matt Bennett be okay with that?

How else were we going to get better pitching? We don’t have enough as is IMO. If you take Burnes off of this staff, we would be in serious trouble and not in first place and one game out of the lead for best record in the AL like we are now.

I don’t see how one can reason that it would be better for us to have kept Ortiz and not acquired Burnes.

[Matt Bennett]

Just now, Bemorewins said:

Even if they knew Holliday wasn’t ready and they decided not to trade Ortiz, the alternative would have probably been to trade Westburg. Would @Matt Bennett be okay with that?

How else were we going to get better pitching? We don’t have enough as is IMO. If you take Burnes off of this staff, we would be in serious trouble and not in first place and one game out of the lead for best record in the AL like we are now.

I don’t see how one can reason that it would be better for us to have kept Ortiz and not acquired Burnes.

I didn't knock the trade! I'm not sure where you read that! 

How else would we get more and better pitching? Well, I sure hope our billionaire owners who are rolling in it are willing to go get some! There's free agency every off-season and the only thing it takes to get players is American dollars! Hoping for a large investment(s) in SP that should have happened years ago. 

[Sports Guy]

17 minutes ago, Matt Bennett said:

 

I'm not knocking the trade, as I said in my post. I love Burnes and hope we pony up to resign him. I just disagree with the idea Ortiz HAD to go since he had no place here. We are seeing that very obviously he had a place here this year. I've watched Urias or Mateo everyday. Holliday wasn't/isn't ready. How many 20 year olds are? Will he be ready at 21? I hope so. 

Short term = there were at-bats for Ortiz. 

Long term = It could have been a challenge to find him at-bats, if things break right. But there's uncertainty I'm not sure that other posters are acknowledging. Even then, I could envision a future of 1B = Mayo, 2B = Holliday, 3B = Ortiz/Westburg, SS = Henderson, everyday utility backing up IF/OF = Westburg/Ortiz. I know they put Westburg in the outfield a little bit in Norfolk. I wonder if that's not still in the cards if Mayo sticks at 3B? Mayo = 3B, Henderson = SS, Holliday = 2B, Westburg = everyday utility backing up IF/OF. If O'Hearn can play OF on this team I have no doubt Westburg can with his athleticism. 

He had too much value in a trade to use him as UTI guy who gets occasional playing time.

And the idea that we just move people around to a new position to accommodate him doesn’t make a lot of sense either.

Edited July 19 by Sports Guy

[Matt Bennett]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

He had too much value in a trade to use him as UTI guy who gets occasional playing time.

And the idea that we just move people around to a new position to accommodate him doesn’t make a lot of sense either.

I said everyday utility. Not occasional playing time. 6 days a week spotting entrenched players & the first to step into that position should an injury occur. If Mateo could hit RHP like he could hit LHP, he'd be playing nearly everyday all over even if Holliday came up to 2B and performed. And that's if every infield prospect hits. 

I mean, moving people around to a new a position to accommodate is...baseball. Westburg and Holliday were shortstops. A-Rod was a shortstop. Machado was a shortstop. They adjusted because of entrenched starters at SS. Mountcastle was everything but a first baseman. Young players grow into positions all the time. They were putting Westburg in the outfield a bit in Norfolk to get him some reps before he even reached the majors. 

[Sports Guy]

Just now, Matt Bennett said:

I said everyday utility. Not occasional playing time. 6 days a week spotting entrenched players & the first to step into that position should an injury occur. If Mateo could hit RHP like he could hit LHP, he'd be playing nearly everyday all over even if Holliday came up to 2B and performed. And that's if every infield prospect hits. 

I mean, moving people around to a new a position to accommodate is...baseball. Westburg and Holliday were shortstops. A-Rod was a shortstop. Machado was a shortstop. They adjusted because of entrenched starters at SS. Mountcastle was everything but a first baseman. Young players grow into positions all the time. They were putting Westburg in the outfield a bit in Norfolk to get him some reps before he even reached the majors. 

You weren’t being realistic. Everyday uti guys basically don’t exist, even if they should. 
 

Westburg barely played in the OF. Moving guys because they aren’t as good at a position or something like that is one thing.  Moving them to a completely new thing just to have a guy play some isn’t something done, especially when the player you are moving is good at where you are moving him from.

All these scenarios you are coming up with just aren’t realistic. There was a log jam and someone had to go. Use, in hindsight because of Holliday’s 10 day struggle and elbow injury, we could have used Ortiz a lot more this year than they probably thought but it is and was still a long term issue and something had to be done eventually. It doesn’t make sense to put off the inevitable if you don’t have to because the risk is there and it’s not like Ortiz was 22 and had a lot of time for his prospect status to be high. 

[Sports Guy]

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/news/phillies-discussed-surprising-deadline-trade-orioles-insider/8782667b5307bc13efc2424e
 

Well isn’t that interesting.  I know Bowden has a tendency to be full of poop but Philly does need a CFer and this does make sense.

[Matt Bennett]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Moving guys because they aren’t as good at a position or something like that is one thing.  Moving them to a completely new thing just to have a guy play some isn’t something done, especially when the player you are moving is good at where you are moving him from.

That sounds like Mateo playing OF from infield to me. Sounds like Machado playing 3B from SS to me. Maybe even O'Hearn playing RF from 1B. Mancini playing OF from 1B? Ortiz playing 3B in Milwaukee from SS. Happens all the time to every team. 

9 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

we could have used Ortiz a lot more this year 

Thank you for acknowledging this! We'll see if the long term log jam forms! 

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Matt Bennett said:

That sounds like Mateo playing OF from infield to me. Sounds like Machado playing 3B from SS to me. Maybe even O'Hearn playing RF from 1B. Mancini playing OF from 1B? Ortiz playing 3B in Milwaukee from SS. Happens all the time to every team. 

Thank you for acknowledging this! We'll see if the long term log jam forms! 

Moving around IF positions is natural.  Going from being an excellent defensive IFer to completely going out into the OF is unusual and you are doing just to accommodate a 25 year old that you hope is good.

When Manny moved, we were a winning team with a GG SS entrenched. It’s a simple move from SS to third as well.