Does Trembley really believe this?

[LookinUp]

I get the point, but you'll never see a guy who never played the game putting his players through something like that unless he's completely resigned to losing his job.

We saw it with Perlozzo, he gets all huggy touchy feely with his players and then they continue to stink and he gets fired. Hopefully the pitching gets called up and saves Trembley, because I like him... but the baserunning mistakes might be the death of him.

Disciplined performance is a hallmark of good teams. If Trembley's fired, it won't be because he was too nice or too mean (unless he loses him mind). It'll be because his team isn't playing disciplined.

Good coaches make sure their players execute with discipline. You seem to be taking the position that he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. That perspective is sure to get the man fired.

If I were Dave Trembley and I had never played MLB, I'd understand that I need to find a way, any way, to get these guys to play fundamental baseball. I'd talk to them, I'd go old school, I'd implement new and/or extra drills, whatever. The end point is discipline. I agree that the tactics need to be flexible.

[El Gordo]

Lol, then they need to be ready for the "yes it does" mantra. :laughlol:

Got any examples of who does that today? And how successful they are?

[RShack]

To me, this is where you cross the line between not throwing your player under the bus (good) and covering up for your player (bad).

I definitely see your point, and there is truth in what you say.

I also think there is a bit more to it than that. Two things:

• In an earlier post, you described the issue as DT not wishing to criticize his players in public. While that is true, I think his intention goes farther than simply wanting to *not* do something. I think it extends into wanting to do something: insulate his players from outside pressure and heat. It's not just wanting to not criticize in public, it's wanting to insert himself between the press and the players. During the years I was in ATL, Bobby Cox was very explicit that he viewed that as part of his job. (I am not saying that Bobby Cox ever said his job was to invent lame excuses, but he did say it was to insulate and protect his players from heat.) In this case, I think we can say that DT's verbal effort to insert himself between the player and criticism took the form of a thin story, but let's not misunderstand what his basic goal is when doing that.

  .

• I don't know what DT thinks, but I can imagine that currently he views his job as trying to manage the atmosphere so that the team can stay positive and hopeful despite losing until more kid-Ps show up and begin to make things better. In the past, both you and I have said that one thing we want to see this year is that the team continues to play with energy and enthusiasm throughout the year, that we don't want to see them with their heads down in the last month or two. This implies reversing the previous pattern, which was to play well early and get their brains beaten in later when the pitching fell apart. If this year reverses that, it implies the team tolerating getting their brains beaten in early and still holding their heads high later on. I can imagine that DT very much wants to keep the team as upbeat as possible, which may cause him to try to insulate them more than he did at first.

I'm not saying he's correct in giving a weak story abut Cesar's baserunning on that one play. I am only trying to get clarity for myself about what's what.

In the case if CI, I really think things are getting way overblown around here. In his brief time here, CI has shown himself to be competent, professional, and has delivered pretty much the kind of performance that we hoped and expected to get from him. To be making a federal case about a guy like CI running with his head down and losing awareness of the ball is making a mountain out of a molehill. Yes, we can say it cost us a run. Lots of things cost us a run. Nothing went wrong yesterday that a timely base hit would not have fixed. CI is not a dumb ballplayer, and IMO climbing all over one event involving CI is dumb. A big part of what's going on is that this place has established the view that baserunning mistakes are somehow DT's Waterloo, and therefore any time anything happens on the basepaths, people cite it as more evidence. If there is some pattern of CI doing dumb things, I missed it. Given the reaction around here, you'd think the guy is a moron when he's clearly not. So, what exactly is the point: that CI is a good ballplayer but playing for a team managed by DT made him goof up?

To me, the important thing about yesterday was to see DH go head to head with Pettitte and the MFY's in Yankee Stadium and do great, especially after a troublesome 1st inning when folks in the game thread were complaining from the beginning about all manner if things, including how DH wouldn't make it through the 4th or 5th. We also had 2 close plays at the plate in which a few inches made the unfortunate difference. I hate losing to the MFY's as much as anybody and more than some, but I was not ashamed of the Orioles yesterday. They started a kid-P who has just a half-season above AA, and they came within a few inches of making the MFY's waste a great outing by Andy Pettitte. It's one thing to be upset by a late-inning loss. It's another thing to focus on small matters and ignore what's important. If anybody thinks that what's important about yesterday is a proven player like CI losing awareness of the ball and making a mistake on the basepaths, well, I don't know what to say. I make the assumption that both CI and DT know what happened and wish it had not happened the way it did. Personally, I don't see the point of skewering either one them about it, but I realize that others think it's important to do that.

[LookinUp]

Got any examples of who does that today? And how successful they are?

Who does what?

Just about every successful team, particularly in basketball and football, are very disciplined. Coach K comes to mind as someone who's very successful at it. So do Greg Popovich and Mike Tomlin.

This isn't about sprints. It's about demanding sound, fundamental play. Discussion about the specific tactic is a diversion.

[El Gordo]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/bal-sp.orioles21jul21002022,0,4837148.story

I heard Trembley say essentially that to Gary Thorne on the post-game interview. But when MASN showed him in the dugout after Izturis didn't score, he looked irritated and totally non-plussed. So either Trembley is going to extremes not to criticize his players in public, or he wasn't watching the same game I was.

When Trembley was talking to Thorne, he partially defended Reimold and Izturis because the plays were hit-and-runs so they didn't have an opportunity to see where the ball was. Excuse me? Isn't the point of a hit-and-run to try to pick up an extra base here and there? If you are fortunate enough that someone gets a hit while the hit-and-run is being executed, that's exactly when you should expect the runner to achieve an extra base out of it. Otherwise, what's the frigging point of a hit and run?

Honestly, I like most things about Trembley, but I'm really starting to wonder if he understands the running game at all. It is a huge blind spot for him so far as I'm concerned, one that may end up costing him his job.

Or, maybe he understands it but doesn't want to criticize his players in public. I understand that to some extent, but to make excuses on plays where any average fan can see that the runner didn't do his job correctly (and all the announcers are pointing it out) just undermines his credibility and makes it seem as if the players are unaccountable for their mental mistakes. He doesn't need to throw players under the bus, but he does need to call a spade a spade.

IMO Reimold would have been a dead duck at the plate if he had tried to score. I remember thinking I'm glad he didn't pick up the ball because, if he had, Samuel might haved waved him in. With Izzy, imagine if it hadn't been a hit and run, he would have had to wait to see if the ball was going to be caught, it was and odd pop fly down the line. He never would have gotten beyond 3B. Now if he had picked up the ball or watched Samuel, he might have had a shot at the plate but it was no sure thing IMO.

[El Gordo]

Who does what?

Just about every successful team, particularly in basketball and football, are very disciplined. Coach K comes to mind as someone who's very successful at it. So do Greg Popovich and Mike Tomlin.

This isn't about sprints. It's about demanding sound, fundamental play. Discussion about the specific tactic is a diversion.

Of a Baseball coach who treats his multi-milion dollar players like a bunch of high school football players, and lasts whole season. Get real.

[LookitsPuck]

The players are to blame AND Dave Trembley. Now that we have that out of the way:

When a player makes a mental mistake, shame on him.

When a player does it again within a close time span, shame on Dave Trembley.

Trembley NEEDS to get these guys on track regarding fundamentals. This isn't a vacuum. Infield practice doesn't solve all problems, but it'll help. How often are they doing it? How often are they practicing hitting their cutoff men? How often are they practicing BASERUNNING? How often are they punished for ROUTINELY making mistakes. I'm not saying bench someone who made a mistake, and it's fairly rare for them. Bench them if it happens too often [see: Mora, Huff at times, etc.].

[LookitsPuck]

IMO Reimold would have been a dead duck at the plate if he had tried to score. I remember thinking I'm glad he didn't pick up the ball because, if he had, Samuel might haved waved him in. With Izzy, imagine if it hadn't been a hit and run, he would have had to wait to see if the ball was going to be caught, it was and odd pop fly down the line. He never would have gotten beyond 3B. Now if he had picked up the ball or watched Samuel, he might have had a shot at the plate but it was no sure thing IMO.

Reimold played it right.

Izturis was dead wrong. If you're in a hit and run and the ball is hit, you make sure to look at the 3rd base coach. Izturis really screwed the pooch on that play, and you can see how clueless he was on the replay. Use the 3rd base coach to let you know where to go if you're uncertain. In baseball, you can't just slide and then assume you're going to find where the ball is. Good grief.

[LookinUp]

Of a Baseball coach who treats his multi-milion dollar players like a bunch of high school football players, and lasts whole season. Get real.

Thanks for joining an interesting discussion and derailing it.

Why do you insist on being a jerk to people on message boards?

[RShack]

Thanks for joining an interesting discussion and derailing it.

Why do you insist on being a jerk to people on message boards?

Actually, he was asking a question that IMO is entirely relevant to the discussion in this thread. It was in response to those who have expressed the opinion that the O's manager should indeed respond to players in a punitive and authoritarian way. I don't see how it's "derailing" anything to ask for evidence of that approach being successful in modern times.

[wickedwitch]

You wouldn't bench or fine players for the vets sake. You do it so that the kids can learn from it before they are set in their habits. The fine could be a certain percentage of the salary so it doesn't overly punish the players making minimum. But the kids are generally pretty good base runners.

How much of the Roberts play was Jones' fault? He was waving him to come home.

[The Wedge]

And how much of the Roberts play was Jones' fault? He was waving him to come home.

Unless Jones caused Roberts to stutter step/hesitate and then slide too far to the outside headfirst...I'm going to say "minimal."

[LookitsPuck]

I don't fault Roberts, and I don't fault Jones. It wasn't a great slide, the Yankees made a good play. The end.

Izturis running on that is up in the air to me. Not sure how I feel about it. The Yankees were playing back and conceding the run, but I don't think I like that play all that much. Tex made a damn good play, and so did Molina.

[El Gordo]

Reimold played it right.

Izturis was dead wrong. If you're in a hit and run and the ball is hit, you make sure to look at the 3rd base coach. Izturis really screwed the pooch on that play, and you can see how clueless he was on the replay. Use the 3rd base coach to let you know where to go if you're uncertain. In baseball, you can't just slide and then assume you're going to find where the ball is. Good grief.

It wasn't a H&R it was a strait steal. A lot of guys keep their head down on a steal. It's not good fundamentals, but if they steal a lot of bases nobody's gonna call them on it. Izzy should have been looking for the ball or Samuel, but I don't think he was a lock to score.

[Satyr3206]

Let's see. In baseball Leyland, LaRussa, Maddon and Pinella come to mind. In football, Parcells, Shanahan, Belichick, and Reid come to mind.

You don't have to be the reincarnation of Lombardi but you do have to make players accountable. I really can't understand why so many people don't get that.