Does Trembley really believe this?

[The Wedge]

Really? Heck what's all the arguing about? We're fundamentally sound. Just have poor coaching... Can I start a thread on coaching? Please, please huh can I can I?

What? He was doing the right thing, telling Iz NOT to slide. Once Iz slid, he totally lost track of the play, and never looked to Samuel until it was too late. Had he picked up on Samuel's "stay up" sign, he would have picked up on a subsequent signal.

[RShack]

Respectfully, I don't think that post in any way captures the general spirit of anything. OldFan just took an extremely close-minded position based on a single play. Who else is doing that? It really bugs me when posters group the opinions of many into categories based on the least common denominator.

Most of the people voicing displeasure with Trembley are pointing to the 2-year trends and the general lack of any change in that trend.

Well, that sounds reasonable, but the kind of baserunning mistakes that have led to the big theme around here of DT and baserunning have zilch to do with the kind of plays we saw yesterday. People are complaining about CI and BRob. Those guys have nothing to do with the generic theme of DT's team doing things on he bases that are either iffy or dumb. IIRC, most of it came from a period when we had a cluster of 3 things happening: (1) Samuel sending guys to be out at the plate, (2) some botched H&R's with Mora up and Huff on 1B, and (3) a few occasions of Mora trying for an extra base in a way that looked like he hadn't realized that he's way slower than he used to be. Isn't that what most of the fussing has been about? How does CI and BRob doing things in-the-moment yesterday have anything to do with that? If there's some long established history of CI and BRob being boneheads and/or doing dumb stuff at DT's behest, I'd sure like to see that long list of them.

[RShack]

It's the same thing as pigeon-holing those of us who are concerned about Guthrie's velocity as thinking he's "no good" and "being happier when we lose."

It was bad enough when Shack made broad generalizations about posters based on actual evidence. Now he's just lumping folks together based on fiction.

It's like one big Survivor competition to find the ideal "fan." But only Shack gets to vote. Wonder who's going to win?

If you have something to add, that's fine. But this sniper routine, in which you make unsupported generalizations while accusing others of doing that, is getting more pronounced and increasingly lame. Maybe you want me to engage you in one of your patented arguments about nothing, just arguing for the sake of arguing, but I'm not really interested in that.

[Fan4Life]

What? He was doing the right thing, telling Iz NOT to slide. Once Iz slid, he totally lost track of the play, and never looked to Samuel until it was too late. Had he picked up on Samuel's "stay up" sign, he would have picked up on a subsequent signal.

I agree with you.. sorry for the misunderstanding. Izzy didn't look to his coach, he should have. At that point we'd be all over Samuel most likely... maybe not. Either way I'm ok with that.

[LookinUp]

Well, that sounds reasonable, but the kind of baserunning mistakes that have led to the big theme around here of DT and baserunning have zilch to do with the kind of plays we saw yesterday.

Wrong. The problem with yesterday was the oft-repeated lack of communication with base coaches. It wasn't, IMO, the plays at home. I'm not sure that most are saying those were "dumb" plays.

People are complaining about CI and BRob. Those guys have nothing to do with the generic theme of DT's team doing things on he bases that are either iffy or dumb.

CI's dumb play was on the steal/not finding the base coach. That was pretty bad. FWIW, somewhere in this or another thread I'm also on record saying that it's somewhat understandable and yesterday should provide Trembley with a good teaching moment to the team.

IIRC, most of it came from a period when we had a cluster of 3 things happening: (1) Samuel sending guys to be out at the plate, (2) some botched H&R's with Mora up and Huff on 1B, and (3) a few occasions of Mora trying for an extra base in a way that looked like he hadn't realized that he's way slower than he used to be. Isn't that what most of the fussing has been about?

W/r/t timing, they coincide with a lot of the fussing but no singular event has necessarily been what the fussing's about. I'm not going to go back and find every bad baserunning move and subsequent discussion, but IIRC Frobby posted some statistics that showed the pretty steep decline in our baserunning since Trembley took over. It's the fact that this trend hasn't changed that is most troubling.

How does CI and BRob doing things in-the-moment yesterday have anything to do with that? If there's some long established history of CI and BRob being boneheads and/or doing dumb stuff at DT's behest, I'd sure like to see that long list of them.

I think you're missing the point. Either way, Trembley will find a way to change things or he may pay for these dumb mistakes with his job. Is it the player's fault? Quite possibly...but it's the coaches job to fix problems. I don't expect Trembley to make Mora into a 40/40 guy, but I do expect good fundamentals to become evident over time.

[ccbird]

Right. You know what, we are the WORST baserunning team in baseball by a WIDE margin. I think it's obvious he's either not understanding the running game or he's unable to corral his players. I won't bow down to DT.

Yeah, obviously this organization knows what they're doing based on this long run of success we've had and the stellar play we witness night after night.

Do you understand how much of the running game is on the players. It's a feel, an instint, a read, an awareness that a player has to have to make a split moment decision in a lot of situations. You can preach to Izturis day after day to pick that ball or coach up off the bat on a hit and run but he's either going to do it when the lights are on or he isn't. You can go over scouting reports with Melvin Mora before every game about each OF's arm but in that split second when he's rounding 2nd he's either going to test Victorino's arm from shallow CF or he isn't, you can tell Huff not to fall for the fake to 3rd throw to first pick off back to 1st move when he reaches 1st base but he's either going to lose focus or he isn't.

The players are the ones that have to play the game and think the game when they are on the field. I don't mean for this to sound condescending but how many of you have coached a sport and understand what it is like to see players repeat mistakes after they are addressed and gone over in practice multiple times. I've been there and it's infuriating as hell and at first you scold the player and make an example of him but then they do it again and again. Eventually, you feel helpless and realize that some people just don't have the ability to focus and and make smart quick decisions in pressure situations.

Any strategic decisions you want to complain about I can understand. I've done my fair share of complaining about pro coaches strategy from my couch. However, I can't agree when people want to jump on a manager for player's decision making or how best to handle the player's decision making. We don't interact with these players on a daily basis, we don't know their personality and we don't have a feel for the overall pulse of the clubhouse. I'm sure DT has a good reason for handling these things the way he handles them.

[Frobby]

Well, that sounds reasonable, but the kind of baserunning mistakes that have led to the big theme around here of DT and baserunning have zilch to do with the kind of plays we saw yesterday. People are complaining about CI and BRob. Those guys have nothing to do with the generic theme of DT's team doing things on he bases that are either iffy or dumb. IIRC, most of it came from a period when we had a cluster of 3 things happening: (1) Samuel sending guys to be out at the plate, (2) some botched H&R's with Mora up and Huff on 1B, and (3) a few occasions of Mora trying for an extra base in a way that looked like he hadn't realized that he's way slower than he used to be. Isn't that what most of the fussing has been about? How does CI and BRob doing things in-the-moment yesterday have anything to do with that? If there's some long established history of CI and BRob being boneheads and/or doing dumb stuff at DT's behest, I'd sure like to see that long list of them.

BRob's play had nothing to do with my opening post or most of this thread. The post was about Izturis' play and Reimold's play, which had the similar element that neither looked for their 3B coach after they didn't know where the ball was. And guess what - I don't have time to look through every thread about a baserunning mistake, but I'd estimate this was about the 5th time that a player hasn't looked for their coach when they were supposed to. It has happened several times, and yet keeps happening.

I don't agree that the mistakes are largely confined to your 3 categories. There was Wigginton trying to stretch a single into a double when the tying run was on 3rd with only 1 out. There was Huff being picked off 1st with a runner on 3rd and one out in a 1-run game. There was the play where Pie narrowly avoided making the 3rd out of an inning at 3B, when he was the tying run. There was the other play involving Pie that Trembley criticized in the press.

There is a mountain of statistical evidence that the baserunning has gotten worse and worse while Trembley has been here, and is at the bottom of the barrel. Just about every available stat shows it. So if you think the manager and coaches don't bear responsibility for this, then I just don't know what to say.

Understand this - I like Dave Trembley. I want him to succeed and remain the manager for so long as he is doing a good job overall. But he has done a very bad job in this area. He calls hit and runs too often (and with the wrong personnel), and he plainly hasn't done enough to drill his players on situational baserunning (e.g., don't go for 3rd with 2 outs unless you are 100% sure you'll make it) and on how to execute certain plays. I don't like the hit and run that much anyway, but for God's sake don't run it if your players don't know what they are supposed to do if the batter hits the ball.

And finally, don't pretend that the screw ups didn't have a consequence when you are asked a question by the press.

[amateurfan]

Do you understand how much of the running game is on the players. It's a feel, an instint, a read, an awareness that a player has to have to make a split moment decision in a lot of situations. You can preach to Izturis day after day to pick that ball or coach up off the bat on a hit and run but he's either going to do it when the lights are on or he isn't. You can go over scouting reports with Melvin Mora before every game about each OF's arm but in that split second when he's rounding 2nd he's either going to test Victorino's arm from shallow CF or he isn't, you can tell Huff not to fall for the fake to 3rd throw to first pick off back to 1st move when he reaches 1st base but he's either going to lose focus or he isn't.

The players are the ones that have to play the game and think the game when they are on the field. I don't mean for this to sound condescending but how many of you have coached a sport and understand what it is like to see players repeat mistakes after they are addressed and gone over in practice multiple times. I've been there and it's infuriating as hell and at first you scold the player and make an example of him but then they do it again and again. Eventually, you feel helpless and realize that some people just don't have the ability to focus and and make smart quick decisions in pressure situations.

Any strategic decisions you want to complain about I can understand. I've done my fair share of complaining about pro coaches strategy from my couch. However, I can't agree when people want to jump on a manager for player's decision making or how best to handle the player's decision making. We don't interact with these players on a daily basis, we don't know their personality and we don't have a feel for the overall pulse of the clubhouse. I'm sure DT has a good reason for handling these things the way he handles them.

Those parts that I've emboldened (edit: This is funny. The words are brave! Oh well, mistakes with words. My mind was off.) all espouse one teaching style: telling/lecturing. First, I doubt that DT employs one teaching style (especially one not particularly suited to males). Second, and I'm drawing this from personal experience, in my classroom, if the kids are wild, that's on me, not them. I can tell my administration all day "These kids suck", and will quickly be out of a job. Adults, and I'm trying to anticipate an objection, do not act so differently from children (at least not as much as we like to think). Of all the undergraduate level courses I've taught (with students ages 17-60), student interest and success are directly related to what I do (the one responsible).

The Orioles are the worst team in MLB at running the bases. It's impossible that the Orioles just randomly built a team of individuals all of whom are horrible base runners. That's just not possible. That's systemic.

[El Gordo]

BRob's play had nothing to do with my opening post or most of this thread. The post was about Izturis' play and Reimold's play, which had the similar element that neither looked for their 3B coach after they didn't know where the ball was. And guess what - I don't have time to look through every thread about a baserunning mistake, but I'd estimate this was about the 5th time that a player hasn't looked for their coach when they were supposed to. It has happened several times, and yet keeps happening.

I don't agree that the mistakes are largely confined to your 3 categories. There was Wigginton trying to stretch a single into a double when the tying run was on 3rd with only 1 out. There was Huff being picked off 1st with a runner on 3rd and one out in a 1-run game. There was the play where Pie narrowly avoided making the 3rd out of an inning at 3B, when he was the tying run. There was the other play involving Pie that Trembley criticized in the press.

There is a mountain of statistical evidence that the baserunning has gotten worse and worse while Trembley has been here, and is at the bottom of the barrel. Just about every available stat shows it. So if you think the manager and coaches don't bear responsibility for this, then I just don't know what to say.

Understand this - I like Dave Trembley. I want him to succeed and remain the manager for so long as he is doing a good job overall. But he has done a very bad job in this area. He calls hit and runs too often (and with the wrong personnel), and he plainly hasn't done enough to drill his players on situational baserunning (e.g., don't go for 3rd with 2 outs unless you are 100% sure you'll make it) and on how to execute certain plays. I don't like the hit and run that much anyway, but for God's sake don't run it if your players don't know what they are supposed to do if the batter hits the ball.

And finally, don't pretend that the screw ups didn't have a consequence when you are asked a question by the press.

I don't know how the regular season practice sessions are structured, perhaps you do. But it seems to me, besides what players are supposed to have learned in the MiL's, the time for these drills is ST. Do you know for a fact that DT neglects these areas in ST? My guess is he doesn't. I agree that the problem is primarilly DT trying to get blood from a bunch of baserunning turnips. But I personally don't expect him to turn those turnips into Maury Wills in the space of a season or two. I also just reviewed Thornes interview with DT and the question was, do you think Reimold and Izzy missed an opportunity to score on those plays? DT's answer was he didn't think so. I don't think they could have either, but the question wasn't about, did those guys screw up on their baserunning fundamentals, so I don't see how you can say he's pretending the screw ups didn't have a consequence. I don't see how you can say that Izzy is certain to score. And Reimold had no chance IMO.

[Frobby]

I don't know how the regular season practice sessions are structured, perhaps you do. But It seems to me, besides what players are suposed to have learned in the MiL's, the time for these drills is ST. Do you know for a fact that DT neglects these areas in ST? My guess is he doesn't. I agree that the problem is primarilly DT trying to get blood from a bunch of baserunning turnips. But I personally don't expect him to turn those turnips into Maury Wills in the space of a season or two.

You do understand, don't you, that he has done the exact opposite?

2006: -0.4 EQBRR (Perlozzo)

2007: -2.4 EQBRR (Perlozzo/Trembley)

2008: -16.5 EQBRR (Trembley)

2009: -17.4 EQBRR (Trembley, though 92 games)

I realize that there's personnel changes from year to year so you can't necessarily say each year's team was comparable to the next. But still, that's very dramatic deterioration on Trembley's watch.

No, I don't pretend to know exactly what Trembley does in spring training or any other time to drill his players on baserunning. All I really know is, it isn't working, and it's getting worse all the time.

[Fan4Life]

You do understand, don't you, that he has done the exact opposite?

2006: -0.4 EQBRR (Perlozzo)

2007: -2.4 EQBRR (Perlozzo/Trembley)

2008: -16.5 EQBRR (Trembley)

2009: -17.4 EQBRR (Trembley, though 92 games)

I realize that there's personnel changes from year to year so you can't necessarily say each year's team was comparable to the next. But still, that's very dramatic deterioration on Trembley's watch.

No, I don't pretend to know exactly what Trembley does in spring training or any other time to drill his players on baserunning. All I really know is, it isn't working, and it's getting worse all the time.

From Roch..

OK, now about that baserunning...

I can't put much blame on the coaching staff. Players are trusted to use their instincts in the field. The responsibility falls upon them.

John "T-Bone" Shelby wasn't yelling for Cesar Izturis to start back toward first base on Brian Roberts' double in the eighth inning. Izturis didn't judge the ball properly at the new Yankee Stadium. All the drills in the world aren't going to correct that mistake. And as you know, the Orioles spend plenty of time in spring training working on their baserunning. They don't go into games unprepared. They've just done a horrendous job of executing. And it's costing them dearly.

[amateurfan]

From Roch..

OK, now about that baserunning...

I can't put much blame on the coaching staff. Players are trusted to use their instincts in the field. The responsibility falls upon them.

John "T-Bone" Shelby wasn't yelling for Cesar Izturis to start back toward first base on Brian Roberts' double in the eighth inning. Izturis didn't judge the ball properly at the new Yankee Stadium. All the drills in the world aren't going to correct that mistake. And as you know, the Orioles spend plenty of time in spring training working on their baserunning. They don't go into games unprepared. They've just done a horrendous job of executing. And it's costing them dearly.

This is simply Roch's opinion. Plus, I don't agree with him. Yes, drills, the right type, and the right number, will correct that mistake. Also, he may not have any training whatsoever in instruction. There are many different methods for teaching behaviors and skills. It's the player's responsibility if it's one, maybe a couple of players who are repeating the same mistakes. This is the entire team.

[Frobby]

From Roch..

OK, now about that baserunning...

I can't put much blame on the coaching staff. Players are trusted to use their instincts in the field. The responsibility falls upon them.

John "T-Bone" Shelby wasn't yelling for Cesar Izturis to start back toward first base on Brian Roberts' double in the eighth inning. Izturis didn't judge the ball properly at the new Yankee Stadium. All the drills in the world aren't going to correct that mistake. And as you know, the Orioles spend plenty of time in spring training working on their baserunning. They don't go into games unprepared. They've just done a horrendous job of executing. And it's costing them dearly.

That's his opinion, and I respect his opinion because he covers spring training and sees what goes on there. But I still disagree with him, and quite honestly, Roch's not really that qualified on things like this.

[Skeletor]

It's not one specific play. It's a season's worth of them. I hate it when guys say facetiously about what the coaches should be doing on a certain play. That's not the point. If people just want to throw their hands up and say that we're just a bad baserunning team, fine. But, I think it's obvious we're horrible on the basepaths as a team and it can be improved. I put that on Trembley.

[Fan4Life]

This is simply Roch's opinion. Plus, I don't agree with him. Yes, drills, the right type, and the right number, will correct that mistake. Also, he may not have any training whatsoever in instruction. There are many different methods for teaching behaviors and skills. It's the player's responsibility if it's one, maybe a couple of players who are repeating the same mistakes. This is the entire team.

Interesting that Roch is quite certain....

They don't go into games unprepared.