Wash Post: O's considering tejada trade

[Fan4Life]

There are many wonderful things you can say about Cal. But "true leader" is not one of them. IMO, the one major shortcoming of Cal is that he didn't mind losing. Miggy hates losing. If everything else was equal, I'd rather have somebody who hates losing over somebody who is comfortable with it.

Cal was an icon. He redefined what people expect of SS's and single-handedly put the Belangers of the world out of business. Cal was also a symbol who was good for the game when the game was in trouble. As SS's, neither one had great range, and Miggy hits better. If he had blue eyes and spoke Engish without an accent, he'd be doing milk commercials too.

I disagree, Cal's work ethic and love for the game was on display everyday he played... Miguel only plays hard when there is something in it for him.. if you call that not liking to lose... well I suppose that could be true, but the results from that attitude aren't anything to be proud of...

For me, I think Miggy is purposely tanking it because he wants to get traded.. and Cal has/had too much integrity to consider such low-class thinking..

So in the end.. we have a different opinion about what's going on and why...

[Loupgaroo]

There are many wonderful things you can say about Cal. But "true leader" is not one of them. IMO, the one major shortcoming of Cal is that he didn't mind losing. Miggy hates losing. If everything else was equal, I'd rather have somebody who hates losing over somebody who is comfortable with it.

Cal was an icon. He redefined what people expect of SS's and single-handedly put the Belangers of the world out of business. Cal was also a symbol who was good for the game when the game was in trouble. As SS's, neither one had great range, and Miggy hits better. If he had blue eyes and spoke Engish without an accent, he'd be doing milk commercials too.

This really isn't true. This is getting off the topic of the thread, but Cal was a very competitive guy, and he absolutely wanted to win. Of course, he would never dream of demanding to be traded, or anything like that. He just comes from a different time and a different sensability about the game - very much his father's son. Miggy and Cal both dislike losing. But Miggy deals with it in a much different way.

[Sports Guy]

LOL. I started responding to Shack's post as well and then after one paragraph, gave up. I didn't like his choice of words either although I did agree with him on some level. I don't think Cal was a great leader but I'm sure he minded losing. He probably just felt it wasn't part of his job to rock the boat or complain about it.

Cal was never a VOCAL leader....He lead by example.

Shack's comment is almost a bannable offense.

[Fan4Life]

LOL. I started responding to Shack's post as well and then after one paragraph, gave up. I didn't like his choice of words either although I did agree with him on some level. I don't think Cal was a great leader but I'm sure he minded losing. He probably just felt it wasn't part of his job to rock the boat or complain about it.

He was a leader in how he prepared himself to play and how he played.. he lead by example... not by media or clubhouse rousing..

[MP]

The only thing to worry about is steriod or HGH related trouble, and that at this point is pure speculation. It's juicy to talk about, but it's just baseless filler.

If any of that comes down, Tejada's value is gone and the O's are even more screwed. We'd have no All Star SS, we'd have no trade value, we'd have no good FA's or prospects to replace him... in short we would have nothing.

[RShack]

He was a leader in how he prepared himself to play and how he played.. he lead by example... not by media or clubhouse rousing..

This is true. But it's not that he never got in a snit about anything. He did. But about what? Did he ever get a snit about losing? Did he ever say "Where are the good players we need?" Did he ever say "The Orioles' fans deserve better"? No he did not. What he got in a snit about was Davey Johnson asking him to play 3B.

I think the world of Cal. He was the model of a good guy with a good work ethic. He was the model of a good guy when the streak was going on and 8 zillion people wanted his autograph. But let's not turn him into a saint. He was just a man, and he had flaws just like anybody does.

[Fan4Life]

This is true. But it's not that he never got in a snit about anything. He did. But about what? Did he ever get a snit about losing? Did he ever say "Where are the good players we need?" Did he ever say "The Orioles' fans deserve better?" What he got in a snit about was Davey Johnson asking him to play 3B.

I think the world of Cal. He was the model of a good guy with a good work ethic. He was the model of a good guy when the streak was going on and 8 zillion people wanted his autograph. But let's not turn him into a saint. He was just a man, and he had flaws just like anybody does.

What he MOSTLY did, was his job. Tejada only does that when there is a reward for it. How many times do you think Cal showed up late for a game? Didn't run out a ground ball? Sat there at home plate watching a long fly ball he thought was a home run bounce off the wall and then have to really hustle not to get thrown out at 2nd? There's a long way between Tejada and Cal.. mostly in the work ethic and attitude arena..

[twoBshorty]

I almost feel like we're starting to develop our own personal version of the ongoing Manny Ramirez soap opera here, and I don't like it one bit. I supported the Tejada/Manny trade in the off-season, and since there is no longer any reason for the Red Sox to do that, as they don't want the defensive downgrade, I'll throw my support behind any trade that gets us established young players in return.

Here's my problem, and it's not the tardiness: we're keeping Tejada on the assumption that we can be competitive soon and build around him. I think signing Mora to an extension was dumb for that reason and I don't think we're going to be competitive soon enough to have more than maybe a year of Tejada in his prime to help us. He's not exactly young any more, and he's already losing several steps. This team does not have the pieces to compete, and has shown no ability to get said pieces. 1B/DH? Been a need for oh, about three years now. We have nothing. Bullpen? Never been very good. Starting pitching? Improving slightly, but we're banking an awful lot on these guys turning into something they're definitely not right now on a consistent basis and Leo Mazzone is not a magician. There are just too many holes and no ability to fill them. By the time we've possibly got them filled, Tejada is going to be very much on the decline. We've got our timelines running at the wrong rates. Developing young guys that are struggling plus older guys that are moving toward the tail end of their primes plus a bunch of scrap metal is not a recipe for success. Trade Tejada so we can get everybody on the same timeline.

And I'm worried about PEDs, too.

[Rock]

This is true. But it's not that he never got in a snit about anything. He did. But about what? Did he ever get a snit about losing? Did he ever say "Where are the good players we need?" Did he ever say "The Orioles' fans deserve better"? No he did not. What he got in a snit about was Davey Johnson asking him to play 3B.

I think the world of Cal. He was the model of a good guy with a good work ethic. He was the model of a good guy when the streak was going on and 8 zillion people wanted his autograph. But let's not turn him into a saint. He was just a man, and he had flaws just like anybody does.

You're the one who's turning him into a saint. He's still alive...

Seriously though, Cal comparisons aside, Do you really believe hating to lose is a legitimate justification for giving half effort, sulking, showing up late, and publicly demanding trades? I think most of us would classify it as immature.

[RShack]

I almost feel like we're starting to develop our own personal version of the ongoing Manny Ramirez soap opera here, and I don't like it one bit. I supported the Tejada/Manny trade in the off-season, and since there is no longer any reason for the Red Sox to do that, as they don't want the defensive downgrade, I'll throw my support behind any trade that gets us established young players in return.

Here's my problem, and it's not the tardiness: we're keeping Tejada on the assumption that we can be competitive soon and build around him. I think signing Mora to an extension was dumb for that reason and I don't think we're going to be competitive soon enough to have more than maybe a year of Tejada in his prime to help us. He's not exactly young any more, and he's already losing several steps. This team does not have the pieces to compete, and has shown no ability to get said pieces. 1B/DH? Been a need for oh, about three years now. We have nothing. Bullpen? Never been very good. Starting pitching? Improving slightly, but we're banking an awful lot on these guys turning into something they're definitely not right now on a consistent basis and Leo Mazzone is not a magician. There are just too many holes and no ability to fill them. By the time we've possibly got them filled, Tejada is going to be very much on the decline. We've got our timelines running at the wrong rates. Developing young guys that are struggling plus older guys that are moving toward the tail end of their primes plus a bunch of scrap metal is not a recipe for success. Trade Tejada so we can get everybody on the same timeline.

And I'm worried about PEDs, too.

I think you make good points. At the same time, you pointed out ongoing weaknesses in 3 areas: 1B, starting pitchers, and the bullpen. I agree with you about 1B, and I think we haven't even been doing the best thing about that with the guys we actually have. But as for the other two, I think the jury is still out. By the end of this year, I think it is plausible (not certain, but plausible) that we will be very happy with the rotation and we might have about the best BP in baseball. So I think you jumped the gun on 2 out of the 3. It's unreasonable to judge what Mazzone can do with the pitching based on such a brief time frame. He *was* a magician in ATL... but not in his first half-season there.

And, if you wanna trade Miggy for Actual Big League players, then you probably need to do that in the off-season anyway because the teams who are most motivated to make deadline trades are precisely those who are in a race and won't want to give up proven players. AFAIK, deadline trades are mostly about snookering somebody who's desperate into giving up more prospects than they should, not giving up proven talent.

[Sports Guy]

The players can be major league ready.

Kotchman, Aybar, Mathis, Wood could all very well be(or already have been) major leaguers right now.

Santana would be the true major leaguer coming back but they have Jared Weaver to slide into his spot.

[Fan4Life]

The players can be major league ready.

Kotchman, Aybar, Mathis, Wood could all very well be(or already have been) major leaguers right now.

Santana would be the true major leaguer coming back but they have Jared Weaver to slide into his spot.

Has Kotchman recovered from his Mono and is playing again?

[Fairfax Bird]

The players can be major league ready.

Kotchman, Aybar, Mathis, Wood could all very well be(or already have been) major leaguers right now.

Santana would be the true major leaguer coming back but they have Jared Weaver to slide into his spot.

That is why this deal makes way too much sense.:002_sbiggrin:

[Sports Guy]

Has Kotchman recovered from his Mono and is playing again?

No...I think he is supposed for another month or so but i am not really sure.

Here is an update on Kotchman:

http://fantasybaseball.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.asp?sport=MLB&id=3832

[RShack]

You're the one who's turning him into a saint. He's still alive...

Hah! You're right, I accidentally did, didn't I? ;-)

Seriously though, Cal comparisons aside, Do you really believe hating to lose is a legitimate justification for giving half effort, sulking, showing up late, and publicly demanding trades? I think most of us would classify it as immature.

No I don't. I don't think Miggy is a saint either. I don't know if he's sulking, maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I'm not gonna reach conclusions about that based on sportswriter talk. As for giving half-effort, I think people are being unfair about his knee. I think Miggy is basically a high-hustle guy when he's healthy.

As for his comments, I've said all along that I wish he had made comments but worded them differently. I wish he had said, "Look here, everybody: I kept my promises to the team and to the fans... it's high time for the FO to keep their's." If he's said it that way, I think it would have made a world of difference in how people perceive him.

I don't know if he's immature or not.