A disturbing trend in the FO

[Sapper]

Roberts and Bedard are young veterans that you build around, not trade away. Melvin Mora is a solid veteran that can bat 2nd or 3rd in your lineup, play 3B or any OF position and wants to be here. Again, why trade away such a player when you aren't likely to get equal value in return? Give me one specific trade that another team offered that you would have taken. What value did a league average pitcher like Lopez have for any team other than us, for whom league average might just as well mean Cy Young?

How do you know one single team offered a trade for Roberts, Mora or Bedard that anyone here or in the O's FO would have considered equal value and filling a need for this team? And, yes, I understand that part of the FO's job is building interest in their own players. Again, how do you know they didn't try and just decided it was better to stay with them than trade the players away for subpar offers?

And finally, why am I not surprised that you didn't start a thread titled, Exciting Trends in the O's Front Office about the signing of Hernandez, trades for Benson and Patterson, etc.?

So we have to wait for other teams to make us offers and either take them or leave them? Wow I didn't realize GM'ing was so little work. I should put my resume in.

[Sports Guy]

I disagree with Sapper. Some players it's better to hold on to then allow them to walk. I know we haven't signed Ryan Adams yet but does anyone believe we could have received 2 players with ceilings as high as Pedro Beato and Ryan Adams it we traded Ryan at the deadline 2005?

I'm more concerned we hold on to our suspects too long and get squat in return.

No doubt about it in my mind.

[Sapper]

Well put, davearm. And that's sort of the point, IMO, of those objecting to Sapper's ideas in this thread. It seems ludicrous to move Ray or Markakis right now. Some think maybe it makes sense to move Penn. Not me.....

Gee, I don't remember ever even suggesting to trade Penn, Markakis or Ray, but other than that, the logic is flawless.

[BaltimoreTerp]

No doubt about it in my mind.

Like who??

[DrungoHazewood]

I disagree with Sapper. Some players it's better to hold on to then allow them to walk. I know we haven't signed Ryan Adams yet but does anyone believe we could have received 2 players with ceilings as high as Pedro Beato and Ryan Adams it we traded Ryan at the deadline 2005?

I gotta agree with this. People point to a few deadline deals where teams got back great prospects, but for the most part you get what you'd expect out of a two-month rental - not a whole lot. The O's got two high-round picks out of BJ Ryan. That's a good deal.

[badboydrake]

Seriously you think it was wise not to trade Tejada, Javy or Mora?

Why is it that everyone here does not understand no one wants Javy Lopez?

The Angels dont want him,. the Blue Jays signed Benji Molina instead of him, and the Dodgers were willing to give us Odalis "whiplash" Perez for him.

It's easy to say we should trade these guys, but unless you want Mike Fontenot, Nate Spears or Ryan Minor, he just isnt worth lettign go. Take the draft picks, and be done with it.

Mora is the same way, I dont know the going rate for a declining 34-year old 3B who is a free agent at the end of the year, but I dont think it is as high as some people want to believe.

As for Tejada, I have no doubt in my mind, if he were traded for Tex and Tex put up that robust .785 OPS here in Baltimore, while Ronny Cedeno plays short we would be talking about Angelos caring more about butts in the seats then winners on the field.

But with all that said, Sapper made a good point, this team needs to start finding out who is good and who isnt before it is too late.

[Sports Guy]

Like who??

TO be honest, i am not in the mood to go back, locate the standings for last year and see who needed a closer to make a playoff run.

However, we have seen closers get alot at the deadline before and Ryan was better than they were...The Mets, for example, probably would have paid alot for him last year.

I always go back to what a GM said in 2004 about Ryan....He said the Orioles have no idea how much they could get back for that guy.

Now, i do agree that we did come out of it pretty good(if we sign Adams and really, you have to sign Adams because of this) but i think we could have gotten more major league ready players for him with as much or more talent.

[bigbird]

Seriously you think it was wise not to trade Tejada, Javy or Mora?

There is no way in hell I'd deal Tejada or Mora right now. That sends a terrible message to a free agent who may actually want to be here. Javy, yes I deal him. We need to get a quality 1B and LF in order to beat NY and Boston. Gibby should be DHing once Javy is traded. You win titles with guys like Tejada not the prospects you get in trade.

[Sapper]

Why is it that everyone here does not understand no one wants Javy Lopez?.....

Why is it that no matter how many times I point it out, this thread isn't about trading these players RIGHT NOW? This is a thread about the Orioles holding onto players too long. So I think you just proved my point. You're right. No one wants Javy NOW! And we got nothing for him.

[Sapper]

There is no way in hell I'd deal Tejada or Mora right now. That sends a terrible message to a free agent who may actually want to be here. Javy, yes I deal him. We need to get a quality 1B and LF in order to beat NY and Boston. Gibby should be DHing once Javy is traded. You win titles with guys like Tejada not the prospects you get in trade.

I've lost faith that this team will be rescued by FA signings. So I guess I don't care what message it sends to the 2006 FA crop.

[Sports Guy]

There is no way in hell I'd deal Tejada or Mora right now. That sends a terrible message to a free agent who may actually want to be here. Javy, yes I deal him. We need to get a quality 1B and LF in order to beat NY and Boston. Gibby should be DHing once Javy is traded. You win titles with guys like Tejada not the prospects you get in trade.

I agree about Mora because we just signed him but i totally disagree about Tejada.

What FA out there are the Orioles dying to get, that we will pony up money for, that will care if Tejada is here or not.

End of the day, i don't buy this argument at all. This team is more than one FA away from contending.

[billyc123]

Gee, I don't remember ever even suggesting to trade Penn, Markakis or Ray, but other than that, the logic is flawless.

Taking my post out of context makes it fairly easy to criticize. No you didn't suggest that. But what you suggest the FO does wrong by holding onto players progresses logically into a discussion about our current rising stars and how to gauge their value v their potential. It's easy for you to say what the FO should have done, now that it's too late for them to do it. Plus, I don't think anyone's arguing w/ you about the brothers Lopez. What's much harder to do is to evaluate the young players on our team who do still have some value. Wait, don't tell me: you don't want to do that b/c it's too hard & you still want to criticize the FO.

[badboydrake]

Why is it that no matter how many times I point it out, this thread isn't about trading these players RIGHT NOW? This is a thread about the Orioles holding onto players too long. So I think you just proved my point. You're right. No one wants Javy NOW! And we got nothing for him.

I read your post, and last off season I said the same thing.

Hence why in my post it notes Mora as a free agent to be.

I remember bigbird coming onto this board, and saying "They are trying to get rid of Javy, but no takers"

Which was bombarded by "This team needs to eat salary, trade him to the Angels, trade him for Hee Seop Choi"

No one wanted Javy last off-season.

Look how long it took for Molina to sign, and he only got 5 milliong dollars for one year.

I knew what you meant.

[BaltimoreTerp]

There is no way in hell I'd deal Tejada or Mora right now. That sends a terrible message to a free agent who may actually want to be here. Javy, yes I deal him. We need to get a quality 1B and LF in order to beat NY and Boston. Gibby should be DHing once Javy is traded. You win titles with guys like Tejada not the prospects you get in trade.

Great post.

But with all that said, this team needs to start finding out who is good and who isnt before it is too late.

This IS true.

However, it is easy to look at a team one year and say that, "We should definately NOT trade these guys," and look back a year later and ask, "Why didn't we trade those guys?"

That's the nature of the game.

Look at Rodrigo Lopez. He stunk up the first month and a half, and we were wondering if we should just take him out on Eutaw Street and shoot him, then he has six of eight good starts and is one of our better starters over that span, and we need him in the rotation. And either place we have no idea what teams are offering for him.

The point is, 1) you can't just say, "We should have traded a guy back then," as there were likley reasons WHY they weren't dealt, and 2) we don't know what teams are offering in most cases until a deal is done. Even the information we get, as important and appreciated as it is, is usually either wrong, or at the least comes to naught (which is the same whether it is bigbird and Wild Bill, or Peter Gammons and Ken Rosenthal).

[clapdiddy]

End of the day, i don't buy this argument at all. This team is more than one FA away from contending.

Yup. Probably even more than 2 free agents away....and there aren't going to be a whole lot of impact players in the FA market this season....and chances are they aren't going to come here if Tejada is here or not.