Over a week ago the O's were reportedly "aggressive" in the free agent market...

[mweb]

But Scottie, what I'm arguing is that making an early offer to Beltre will mean very little when he actually signs.

Whether we offer 4/60 today or 4/60 on December 22 he's gonna sign where he's gonna sign. Making an early offer in an attempt to "show him we are serious" will mean very little to him IMO.

But offering him that now will please a lot of fans on here, and that's what this debate is really about, not results.

I would be happy if they put out a 5/67.5 deal for Beltre right now, but like you, I realize it doesn't really matter if that offer is extended today, or later or not at all when another team offers more, or AM gets a guy he prefers through trade.

[mweb]

I am not neccassarily talking about you..I know what your feeling ar..You just want to come in this thread and say you don't know why people get upset about this..Fine, whatever. But I am not really addressing you persay, just the general tone and points of the board.

That's fine, but I do agree with them that it makes sense to look around the league and see what's being done. That doesn't make me satisfied with what has happened to date, but it doesn't make me want to go on a tirade either.

[El Gordo]

But offering him that now will please a lot of fans on here, and that's what this debate is really about, not results.

I would be happy if they put out a 5/67.5 deal for Beltre right now, but like you, I realize it doesn't really matter if that offer is extended today, or later or not at all when another team offers more, or AM gets a guy he prefers through trade.

Haven't people been complaining that that's all the O's ever do, make empty offers to try to please/placate the fans? Not a good idea IMO.

[mweb]

Haven't people been complaining that that's all the O's ever do, malke empty offers to try to please/placate the fans? Not a good idea IMO.

Haha, I hadn't thought about that, but yes, you are correct. If the O's offered Beltre 4/60 now and don't budge, then he ends up singing for 5/75 or whatever, a lot of people would make the complaint you mention.

[Slappy]

Who has really been aggressive in the FA market yet. Jeez, it's not even December yet, can't we save the indignation and hand-wringing until Christmas?

[Frobby]

Here is my thing...We know he is a type A and will be offered arbitration.

If you have identified him as a guy you want, why not meet with him and offer him a contract already?

I guarantee you that if AM had done this already, people would be on here praising the hell out of him. But, when he isn't doing that, people think its absurd for some to want him to do that.

It basically comes back to one thing...Whatever the Orioles do, fans believe that is the best way of doing things. If he was out there offering deals, making trades, etc...people would be praising him. If he sits back, waits for the market to set itself, people think its fine because not many other teams are making moves.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I don't care what other teams have done. I want Andy MacPhail to strike early and often. Waiting as he (and his predecessors) have done in years' past has yet to yield an impact player. If you keep doing 'A', and the result is 'B', there's no reason to expect anything different. So far, they're headed down path 'A' again. The fan in me would like to see something different. Something..."aggressive".

I understand what you guys are saying. I'd point out the following:

1. We don't know what AM has done. Maybe he has made offers. Maybe he has discussed parameters in pretty concrete terms. I'm not saying he has, but we also don't know that he hasn't.

2. AM has to read the situation. Because the Orioles have been bad for so long, there may be some situations where if he makes an early aggressive offer, the agents will spend weeks if not longer using that offer to push for offers from more deisreable teams. It may be to our disadvantage to tip our hand too early. Again, I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, or that it is the case in every situation. But it may be appropriate not to make a specific offer right away in some situations.

3. In some cases, our primary target may be a Type A where it's not clear if that player will be offered arbitration. Hence, we need to wait a few more days to know what the true cost of certain players are, which may affect how the alternatives get weighed.

Overall, I agree we need to be aggressive, but I don't think we know enough about what's going on to be critical at this stage. If another 2 weeks go by and nothing concrete has happened, I will be more concerned.

[mweb]

BTW, I also think AM should be more agressive and willing to take risks, but that has little to nothing to do with how fast he works.

[Roll Tide]

BTW, I also think AM should be more agressive and willing to take risks, but that has little to nothing to do with how fast he works.

Unless they wait until to late into a guys process to get involved ...WHich seems to have happened in the recent past.

[mweb]

Unless they wait until to late into a guys process to get involved ...WHich seems to have happened in the recent past.

The only time it's too late is when the move has already been made. What examples do you have of this and please don't say Tex.

[mweb]

The only reason I point out the other teams is because of the same, stupid argument by so many that no one is doing nothing and we shouldn't expect the Orioles to be any different. If people would stop using that awful argument, I wouldn't mention the other teams either. That is just being thrown out there to show how poor that argument is.

BTW, this simply isn't true. Anytime other teams make a move that you wish the O's would have done and/or that you can point to in saying another team is smarter than the O's, you do so. You also like to bring up other teams farm systems in comparison with ours. And those things should be talked about, but don't act like you need someone to prompt you in order to mention what other teams are doing.

[Frobby]

At the risk of provoking SG into his "who cares what other teams are doing" mode, these are the only significant trasactions I could find so far this offseason:

Red Sox traded Dustin Richardson to the Marlins for Andrew Miller.

Reds re-signed Ramon Hernandez.

Rockies traded Clint Barmes to the Astros for Felipe Paulerino.

Tigers re-signed Brandon Inge and Jhonny Peralta.

Marlins traded Dan Uggla to the Braves for Omar Infante and Mike Dunn.

Marlins signed John Buck.

Royals traded David DeJesus to the A's for Vin Mazzaro and Justin Marks.

Yankees traded Juan Miranda to the Diamondbacks for Scott Allen.

A's claimed Juan Encarnacion off waivers from the Jays.

Padres traded Edwin Mujica and Ryan Webb to the Marlins for Cameron Maybin.

Cardinals re-signed Jake Westbrook.

Is there anything significant missing from this list?

I believe John Buck is the only free agent to change hands so far this offseason.

In addition to Geoff Blum, McNulty pointed out that I left out the Tigers' signing of Benoit.

[Sports Guy]

BTW, this simply isn't true. Anytime other teams make a move that you wish the O's would have done and/or that you can point to in saying another team is smarter than the O's, you do so. You also like to bring up other teams farm systems in comparison with ours. And those things should be talked about, but don't act like you need someone to prompt you in order to mention what other teams are doing.

Different context though but whatever..getting into some semantical argument with you is one of my least favorite things because its a giant waste of time for each of us.

[mweb]

Different context though but whatever..getting into some semantical argument with you is one of my least favorite things because its a giant waste of time for each of us.

I don't see how complaining that we didn't do a move that was done is a different context than looking around and seeing that not much has been done so there's not much to complain about yet, but ok.

This whole thread is a waste of time, but it hasn't stopped either of us or a lot of others.

[JTrea81]

MacPhail's 10 step process:

1. Say you will be after a range of players from premium to bargain basement.

2. Prep fanbase for disappointment by having media say Orioles have little shot at premium guys.

3. Wait for the market to set itself.

4. Have media say you are pursuing premium targets getting hopes up and season ticket sales up. Lucy might let Charlie Brown kick the football this time!

5. Make a token bid to the premium FA targets after the "big boys" make an offer making sure you won't get the player.

6. Watch said premium players sign with other teams and Charlie Brown fall on his butt.

7. Say through the media that the player never would have come to Baltimore and we weren't "one player" away anyway.

8. Watch fans justify your actions and agree with you because they are too beaten down and apathetic.

9. Go after bargain basement signings and cross fingers that they overachieve.

10. Sign said bargain basement players and watch them crash and burn during the season.

Rinse and repeat next offseason

[Hank Scorpio]

MacPhail's 10 step process:

1. Say you will be after a range of players from premium to bargain basement.

2. Prep fanbase for disappointment by having media say Orioles have little shot at premium guys.

3. Wait for the market to set itself.

4. Have media say you are pursuing premium targets getting hopes up and season ticket sales up. Lucy might let Charlie Brown kick the football this time!

5. Make a token bid to the premium FA targets after the "big boys" make an offer making sure you won't get the player.

5. Watch said premium players sign with other teams and Charlie Brown fall on his butt.

6. Say through the media that the player never would have come to Baltimore and we weren't "one player" away anyway.

7. Watch fans justify your actions and agree with you because they are too beaten down and apathetic.

8. Go after bargain basement signings and cross fingers that they overachieve.

9. Sign said bargain basement players and watch them crash and burn during the season.

10. Rinse and repeat next offseason

You forgot #11, which is probably my overwhelming favorite... drive JTrea bananas.