Just don't understand the optimism about Tillman

[EutawStreet]

I have not seen Tillman pitch anytime as good as Bergy did in 09. We know Bergensen has it in him to be pretty good. Tillman not so much. Also Bergy can hit 93 consistantly.

It seems to me that Bergesen was much more effective in '09 when he was throwing 88-90. The only thing the 93 mph does for him is flatten that sinker into a fastball.

[OFFNY]

Someone help me understand how this is even an argument. It is plain and simple... when Tillman pitches we are very much in the game when he comes out, when Bergy pitches we are not.

I would much rather have a starter go 5 innings every outing and give up 1 run than have Bergesen pitch 6 or 7 and give up 4-6 runs. Who cares if Tillman is "lucky"? As long as we have a shot to win, who gives a ****? When Bergesen pitches, I have zero confidence that we will win. I have nothing against Bergesen but he just isn't any good. Tillman may not be either but he is consistently putting together reasonable starts for a #5 starter.

Here is one counter-argument from another thread.

Not sure if you're being serious here. Going 4 1/3 innings as a starter should not be praised as giving your team a chance to win.

Nor is giving up 6 hits, 3 walks, hitting a batter, giving up numerous line drives which were luckily hit right at defenders, and then leaving the game with the bases loaded and one out in the 5th inning, and requiring a brilliant relief effort from Simon to save your bacon.

[wildcard]

Your argument would be better if Bergesen had pitched better. The fact is, neither pitcher has exactly seized the opportunity presented to them. If Bergy pitches well today and goes 7 innings, Buck's choice gets interesting. I don't think anyone is "giddy" over Tillman (your word). But as between two pitchers who aren't wowing anyone right now, some prefer the guy who is younger and has better secondary pitches.

I've been plenty supportive of both pitchers. But I'm pretty underwhelmed by both at the moment.

I second this. Bergy has an opportunity to stay in the rotation with a good outing tonight. Let's see what he does with it.

[eddie83]

If Tillman is effective in short 3 to 4 innings stints, as he has shown himself to be over the past 4 games, then why try to force him into a role that he's consistently shown himself ill suited for?

And seriously - if you think Buck's not interested in teaching young players how to play the game, then you haven't followed Buck's career very closely. He is most well known for his ability to take young players with talent and bring out the best in them at the major league level.

Tillman may be a pitcher who can get outs, but who simply can't pitch efficiently enough to be a starter. Our middle relief is horrible as evidenced by the performance of the bullpen tonight. The team may be better and more likely to win with Tillman in the long relief role. Have you considered that?

He is a starting pitcher prospect, the guy has been a starter his entire career. As frustrated as I have been with Tillman I am not giving up on him. He is still young and has upside. The Orioles aren't going to bail on that at this stage of his career, he is 23 years old.

Considering our lack of starting pitching options I want Bergy or Tilly to go back to the minors and pitch every 5 days. If Buck can teach him to command his fastball he already would have.

[eddie83]

I really don't think Showalter would willingly sacrifice the team's chances of competing now for a possible long term benefit to the club. If that were the case, I don't think we sign Lee or Guerrero or Gregg or Rupe or Rapada or Jakubauskas or Duke. I don't think the team promotes Britton when Matusz goes down and risks accelerating his move through the minors or starting his service clock sooner than necessary.

The O's are playing to win now. They aren't going to put the development of a single player above the putting the best possible team on the field.

See here I agree with you, all of your points are dead on. Overall Bergy or Tilly aren't great options right now but we need to pick one.

[backwardsk]

I said this in a different thread, but I'll say it here too. After looking over the schedule, it appears that there are only four opportunities for a fifth starter until the All-Star break. I'd send down Tillman when Matusz comes up to keep him on a 5 day schedule. Let Bergesen work out of the pen and make those four starts. Reassess at the break.

Also, I wonder if the move for Berken to a starting role in the minors, and saying it's because "he's too strong", is a smokescreen for the fact that Buck may not have confidence in either one and wants more options for the fifth spot.

[panick]

I see one of you has referenced how well Bergesen pitched in 2009.

In case you hadn't noticed, he hasn't pitched that well since 2009.

Other than the 2009 performance and the fact that he works faster, I haven't seen anyone really make the case that Bergesen should be in the rotation instead of Tillman. But, barring an injury to one of the other starters, one of them will be out when Matusz returns.

Palmer has mentioned the mechanical problems Tillman has. If Connor is the best pitching coach to work with on those problems, Tillman should stay in the majors. If the Norfolk pitching coach can help, Tillman should be sent down. While some of you have said he has nothing to prove in the minors, maybe he does. He needs to prove that he can get his mechanics straightened out and pitch efficiently. If he can, he has a brighter future than Bergesen. If he can't, neither of them are long-term solutions as starters.

[Sports Guy]

Yet, you are optimistic about Bergesen...That makes little sense.

Tillman is clearly more talented and clearly has more upside than BB.

Tillman is learning and has a lot to work on but he is improving and is still very young.

Tillman may never get it or he may end up being a solid mid rotation starter but right now, he should be given the ball every 5th day for the entire season, let him gain more experience and then see where he is.

Right now, he has essentially pitched one full season and he has done that at very young ages. On top of that, he has been playing with a new pitch and new mechanics, all the while having several different pitching coaches in his ear.

I am not trying to make excuses for him because his game has a lot of holes in it and he is a long ways away right now from reaching his ceiling but he is basically our 4/5 starter right now and he is giving us exactly what a back of the rotation starter normally gives.

The question is, how much more can he be? As long as we continue to see improvements, then you have to have hope for him to be better.

[Sports Guy]

Tillman has a 337 BABIP and for most of the year, his LD% has been excellent...maybe he got a little lucky last night but most of his stats cry out unlucky.

The only stat he has been lucky about is a really low HR/FB%.

[ShaneDawg85]

Why am I not surprised that the second Tillman has a mediocre start a thread like this pops up.

[Why_Knott?]

Simply put, he will not survive in the Majors with an 86 MPH fastball. What happened to him?!

[Moose Milligan]

Simply put, he will not survive in the Majors with an 86 MPH fastball. What happened to him?!

Now now, he doesn't sit at 86 mph. Fangraphs shows that his average this year so far is like 90.2 or something.

Still, he doesn't throw as hard as he did two years ago. I'm more concerned with the lack of fastball movement than the velocity.

[bluedog]

Why am I not surprised that the second Tillman has a mediocre start a thread like this pops up.

Did you watch his last two starts? They were also mediocre despite him giving up only 1 run. He's only had a couple of really solid starts all year - and even in those, he's been limited by pitch count. If you think this thread was a knee jerk reaction to a single start, you haven't been paying attention.

[Stotle]

Tillman has a ways to go, but I've very much enjoyed watching him start to figure things out this year. It's disappointing to me that a fanbase that has watched terrible baseball for a decade can't show enough patience to allow a talented young arm to make adjustments and attempt to grow into a useful future piece.

He has 34 career MLB starts. That is fewer than a healthy pitcher would typically make in a single MLB season. I get it -- it's a results-oriented business when you are talking about fans. I just wish folks in general could get behind the idea that development is not always linear.

I could go off on how Matusz was treated the first half of last year and how Wieters has been treated the past two seasons, but I guess it's not really the point.

[Can_of_corn]

Tillman has a ways to go, but I've very much enjoyed watching him start to figure things out this year. It's disappointing to me that a fanbase that has watched terrible baseball for a decade can't show enough patience to allow a talented young arm to make adjustments and attempt to grow into a useful future piece.

He has 34 career MLB starts. That is fewer than a healthy pitcher would typically make in a single MLB season. I get it -- it's a results-oriented business when you are talking about fans. I just wish folks in general could get behind the idea that development is not always linear.

I could go off on how Matusz was treated the first half of last year and how Wieters has been treated the past two seasons, but I guess it's not really the point.

Just wait till Britton throws a couple clunkers in a row.