Roch: Pitching looking like a priority this offseason

[LookitsPuck]

That's why we can't depend on our prospects, and should think about trading them for established pitching talent in the short term.

Boston and New York do not have entirely homegrown rotations. If we can get two or three homegrown starters, we'll be just fine. Trying to come up with a rotation like Tampa's is a pipedream. They took 10 years to develop that system and we simply won't get there. Nor do we need to with the resources we have.

If you can trade Brian Matusz in a package for a solid starting #2 pitcher, you do it.

Boston - Jon Lester, Clay Buchholz

Yankees - Phil Hughes, Ivan Nova

FWIW, we are not the Red Sox or the Yankees. The Yankees have Sabathia and Burnett. Guess how much they cost. The Red Sox bought Matsuzaka, Lackey, and flipped a dream prospect for Beckett.

We can do something in the middle, i.e. the Rays whilst being able to spend a little on premium talent...but we can't overspend. We just don't have the capital to go $100 million+, IMHO

[CA-ORIOLE]

If you can trade Brian Matusz in a package for a solid starting #2 pitcher, you do it.

That's not gonna happen now.

[LookitsPuck]

That's not gonna happen now.

I'm sure you could package him to get back a #2, but Matusz will not be the centerpiece of the trade.

JTRea, who would be a solid #2 in your opinion?

[CA-ORIOLE]

I'm sure you could package him to get back a #2, but Matusz will not be the centerpiece of the trade.

JTRea, who would be a solid #2 in your opinion?

Teams don't give up number 2 pitchers cheaply. BOS/NY pay 15-18 mil for old ones on long term deals.

[UMDTerrapins]

The only problem is that we're "behind the curve" with virtually every notable young player in our organization. They've all been exposed and devalued already. It sounds to me like he's talking about Tillman, but I say that quote is most relevant to Pie. And in another category, not trading Guthrie and Scott last offseason or earlier this year was a missed opportunity as well. But at this point, trading off someone like Tillman is pointless because his potential and age make him a better gamble to keep vs what you'll get for him. I wonder if there's a trade that we walked away from that would have been beneficial had we not been more honest with ourselves.

I'm not too thrilled that it continues to look like Reimold is not well liked by Buck. He had the 4th highest OPS on the team despite having inconsistent playing time. Yes, we were behind the curve when it mattered. But let's not compound the mistake by trading off young players with some potential to become regulars without giving them a full season to re-establish value. Nobody is thinking of 2012 as a contending year. So let's be honest with ourselves and give Reimold and Davis 500 at bats next year between LF, DH and 1B. They aren't likely the long term answer for us, but you have to commit to some players if you want to build value from what you already have. For an organization that is thin on talent, we pissed away Luke Scott, Felix Pie, Pedro Beato and Justin Turner for absolutely no return. Not earth shattering, but also not a move in the right direction.

Until we've got enough talent to contend, we should stay in the mode of accumulation and development of talent. We acquired Strop and Davis during the season, and developed Andino and Patton. A team that is in our state should be doing far more to acquire and establish value. I guess my point is that we already missed the bus on being ahead of the curve. I think being honest with yourself means admitting that we have to forget about the Guerrero's and Lee's of the world and start looking for some blocked prospects in other organizations that we can get cheap and throw regular playing time their way. I'm all for going after Darvish or Wilson....or Fielder. But we have to commit ourselves to youth as well and not split a position like LF between Reimold, Pie, Scott, Fox, Angle and Hudson again...with nobody getting more that 267 ABs. Either find an established player who can produce better than league average at the position or commit to youth there.

[LookitsPuck]

Teams don't give up number 2 pitchers cheaply. BOS/NY pay 15-18 mil for old ones on long term deals.

Think about this: the BoSox gave up Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez to get back Beckett and Lowell (although Lowell was really looked at as a salary dump [although not entirely]).

[CA-ORIOLE]

The only problem is that we're "behind the curve" with virtually every notable young player in our organization. They've all been exposed and devalued already. It sounds to me like he's talking about Tillman, but I say that quote is most relevant to Pie. And in another category, not trading Guthrie and Scott last offseason or earlier this year was a missed opportunity as well. But at this point, trading off someone like Tillman is pointless because his potential and age make him a better gamble to keep vs what you'll get for him. I wonder if there's a trade that we walked away from that would have been beneficial had we not been more honest with ourselves.

I'm not too thrilled that it continues to look like Reimold is not well liked by Buck. He had the 4th highest OPS on the team despite having inconsistent playing time. Yes, we were behind the curve when it mattered. But let's not compound the mistake by trading off young players with some potential to become regulars without giving them a full season to re-establish value. Nobody is thinking of 2012 as a contending year. So let's be honest with ourselves and give Reimold and Davis 500 at bats next year between LF, DH and 1B. They aren't likely the long term answer for us, but you have to commit to some players if you want to build value from what you already have. For an organization that is thin on talent, we pissed away Luke Scott, Felix Pie, Pedro Beato and Justin Turner for absolutely no return. Not earth shattering, but also not a move in the right direction.

Until we've got enough talent to contend, we should stay in the mode of accumulation and development of talent. We acquired Strop and Davis during the season, and developed Andino and Patton. A team that is in our state should be doing far more to acquire and establish value. I guess my point is that we already missed the bus on being ahead of the curve. I think being honest with yourself means admitting that we have to forget about the Guerrero's and Lee's of the world and start looking for some blocked prospects in other organizations that we can get cheap and throw regular playing time their way. I'm all for going after Darvish or Wilson....or Fielder. But we have to commit ourselves to youth as well and not split a position like LF between Reimold, Pie, Scott, Fox, Angle and Hudson again...with nobody getting more that 267 ABs. Either find an established player who can produce better than league average at the position or commit to youth there.

I support this post. Lets see Reimold/Davis/Andino/Adams play. Maybe resign Scott to DH. Unless we are really going after Fielder, spend the money on player development instead of more crappy FA's who consume playing time and make me wanna puke.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Think about this: the BoSox gave up Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez to get back Beckett and Lowell (although Lowell was really looked at as a salary dump [although not entirely]).

That wasn't exactly cheap.

[Remember The Alomar]

Buck's comments sure make it sound like he's the GM.

[LookitsPuck]

That wasn't exactly cheap.

Of course it wasn't.

[Scrat1]

Shoulda, woulda, coulda, but this team would look a lot different right now if we had pulled the trigger on that Gavin Floyd for Brian Roberts trade 3-4 years ago. The deal-breaker at the time was the White Sox wouldn't include Chris Getz. Chris Getz. Most people on the board, including me, felt Gavin Floyd alone was not enough.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Of course it wasn't.

OK, got it. Then consider that Beckett was soon after tied up to an expesnive long term deal also and Hanley played for ML minumum. Getting back to the point with Trea, I just don't see where the current Brain Matusz yields us very much value in a package deal for a number 2. To be fair, Beckett was probably projectible as a clear TOR (not a 2) even back then.

[scOtt]

Dumb to spend big money on FA SP at this point. We are too bad of a team.

Convert JJ to starter. Re-sign Guthrie. FA SP's are going to be too expensive, cost us picks, and likely won't yield any better results than Guthrie/JJ would imo. From there we have Hunter (who i think has decent potential), Britton and Arrieta. Crazy to think about trading or giving up on Matusz now. So he's obviously in the mix for next year. Simon/Tillman/Bergy in the mix for BOR. I think I'd move Tillman to the BP at this point and tell him to just let it fly and see how he does. I don't see starter material there. From there sign 1-2 vet retread projects, trade for 1-2 ML ready starters and improve the defense.

I kind of agree with Trea's point about identifying pitching prospects who we think won't project and dealing them early. Tillman (not Matusz) would be a classic case imo.

I disagree with pretty much all this. Not because I think I'm right and you're wrong, it's just a difference of opinion.

That being said, Tillman is the perfect idea. Not Matusz. Like Puck I think (almost expect) Brian to bounce back in a big way. And he's at such a low point right now there's now way you give up on his potential right now.

Tillman on the other hand, is still a huge question mark. I personally think he's next to nothing. BUT... he's such a question mark that some team will be willing to take a chance. We should be able to get something solid for him. I'm thinking the equivalent of Davis/Hunter.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I disagree with pretty much all this. Not because I think I'm right and you're wrong, it's just a difference of opinion.

That being said, Tillman is the perfect idea. Not Matusz. Like Puck I think (almost expect) Brian to bounce back in a big way. And he's at such a low point right now there's now way you give up on his potential right now.

Tillman on the other hand, is still a huge question mark. I personally think he's next to nothing. BUT... he's such a question mark that some team will be willing to take a chance. We should be able to get something solid for him. I'm thinking the equivalent of Davis/Hunter.

I think we agree. My point was Tillman was a guy we should have looked to deal early on because he didn't really project (imo) because of his command. I do think we'd get something for Tillman now (maybe not "solid") but not what we might have gotten earlier on. Matusz was obviously projectable and I would not have been inclined to deal him early on. Nor would I want to give him up on him now for peanuts.

[scOtt]

I think we agree. My point was Tillman was a guy we should have looked to deal early on because he didn't really project (imo) because of his command. I do think we'd get something for Tillman now (maybe not "solid") but not what we might have gotten earlier on. Matusz was obviously projectable and I would not have been inclined to deal him early on. Nor would I want to give him up on him now for peanuts.

Absolutely on all that. I'd love to see what AM could get for Tillman, but obviously that ship has sailed.