Gold Glove announcement tonight...scouts perspective ( Update - All 3 Orioles win)

[scOtt]

I took Buck's comments about Nick as just talking up his own guy.

And a veiled shot at CC. Shame he doesn't bat...

[DrungoHazewood]

We have Gold Glove caliber players all over the field. Markakis and McClouth both have one. And Manny and Reynolds were crazy down the stretch, they could both have one if they keep it up!

I think McLouth has found a nice niche in left, but his GG in center is one of the more ridiculous selections of recent times. All of the metrics I know of had him as not just a bad center fielder, but an epically bad center fielder. Like -20 or -25. Like Derek Jeter bad.

And as far as Jones being deserving, I think the coaches and managers might see a lot of things from the inside that a lot of us don't.

I wouldn't count on that. I don't think they know anything we don't, at least with respect to judging and ranking individual performances across the league. It's almost impossible for them to have a firm grasp of ranking players, many of whom they've seen 6-8 times spread over six months.

[Annie]

Sounds like some are upset because Jones winning GGs makes it harder for Buck to move him from CF. Guess what? Buck was never going to move Jones out of CF anyway. Just like he was never going to move Hardy from SS. Both are arguments that in reality are not something we would never see happen as long a Buck is here.

The argument about Blair is really about another place and another time. In Blair's day the outfields were huge. Paul was amazing. Camden is almost too small for Blair to show his best.

:thumbsup1:

especially the part about moving Jones and Hardy. Hardy stays where he is through next season for sure. we'll see what happens in 2014.

I'm all for speculation (it's what this board is for, after all). But IMHO, those suggestions were cray cray (<< I can say 'cray cray' because I'm a girl). I'd be more supportive of the idea of moving Jones at some point...but Hardy is wayy too valuable where he is and Machado seems to be too good at third. I'm SURE Machado is the SS of the future for this org. But not quite yet.

[scOtt]

You just reminded me how amazing Brooksie's 16 straight were....Typing it out adds to its awesomeness -

1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975

Somehow reading "1960 to 1975" psychologically lessens it for me, but to see each year...wow, just wow.

And this...

[wildcard]

I think McLouth has found a nice niche in left, but his GG in center is one of the more ridiculous selections of recent times. All of the metrics I know of had him as not just a bad center fielder, but an epically bad center fielder. Like -20 or -25. Like Derek Jeter bad.

I wouldn't count on that. I don't think they know anything we don't, at least with respect to judging and ranking individual performances across the league. It's almost impossible for them to have a firm grasp of ranking players, many of whom they've seen 6-8 times spread over six months.

But I don't think the managers and coaches value advanced stats like some fans do. They go on playing a full season, showing range, showing an arm, doing the job at a high level for the most part.

[DrungoHazewood]

But I don't think the managers and coaches value advanced stats like some fans do. They go on playing a full season, showing range, showing an arm, doing the job at a high level for the most part.

And at the level they look at things it's nearly impossible for them to do an accurate ranking. They're kind of taking a quick look, trying to remember who looked good and who didn't over the past six months, and not relying on any kind of carefully recorded written record at all.

It's like me coming up to you with a list of 10 actors, some of whom you watch weekly, some of whom you saw half a movie they were in on Showtime eight months ago, and saying, quick, tell me who gets this year's Oscar?

What the Gold Gloves are is a kind of fuzzy representation of the general opinion of some coaches and managers. It's not a measure of who are the best fielders, not in any meaningful way.

[BohKnowsBmore]

And at the level they look at things it's nearly impossible for them to do an accurate ranking. They're kind of taking a quick look, trying to remember who looked good and who didn't over the past six months, and not relying on any kind of carefully recorded written record at all.

It's like me coming up to you with a list of 10 actors, some of whom you watch weekly, some of whom you saw half a movie they were in on Showtime eight months ago, and saying, quick, tell me who gets this year's Oscar?

What the Gold Gloves are is a kind of fuzzy representation of the general opinion of some coaches and managers. It's not a measure of who are the best fielders, not in any meaningful way.

I think that you're assuming a lot. That they don't look at the numbers is a pretty big assumption IMHO.

[Il BuonO]

Also because it's a different game than when Blair played. Paul Blair couldn't play as shallow as Paul Blair if he was a 25-year-old today, because a lot more players hit for power. In 1970 there were 64 players who had 300+ PA and an ISO under .100. In 2012 there were 41 despite there being 20% more teams and players.

Maybe so, but if you lined them up in the same spot you can't honestly tell me that you think Jones gets as good a read on the ball, gets back on the ball as well, or gets as good a jump on the ball as Blair did. He has him beat in arm strength and thats it.

[Moose Milligan]

What the Gold Gloves are is a kind of fuzzy representation of the general opinion of some coaches and managers. It's not a measure of who are the best fielders, not in any meaningful way.

Quick, how many of his of Brooks' GG's didn't he deserve?

[DrungoHazewood]

I think that you're assuming a lot. That they don't look at the numbers is a pretty big assumption IMHO.

I know that a few years ago, before the GGs even had lists of nominated players, there was a piece written with some insider perspective that really did say most managers/coaches either free-associated names off the top of their heads, or farmed out the whole task to some menial club employee. The idea that any significant percentage of voters was spending hours pouring over lists of UZR, +/-, internal club rankings, and the like was laughable. Most guys treated it as a low-priority task to get knocked out in 15 minutes.

Maybe so, but if you lined them up in the same spot you can't honestly tell me that you think Jones gets as good a read on the ball, gets back on the ball as well, or gets as good a jump on the ball as Blair did. He has him beat in arm strength and thats it.

I never said Jones was as good as Blair. I was simply stating that Paul Blair would have had to play significantly deeper if he played today, so if Jones was trying to play where Paul Blair did in 1970 he didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of doing an adequate job.

[Il BuonO]

Quick, how many of his of Brooks' GG's didn't he deserve?

That one in '73 was a joke.

[HoustonOrioleFan]

And this...

ScOtt - Thanks...the photo is even more awesome than typing it out...BrOOksie!!!!!!!!

[HoustonOrioleFan]

That one in '73 was a joke.

Yeah, I clearly remember that Beltre should've won that year at third...Also, 1973 was the year Beltre started his "I shall be Jock-less" policy...

[DrungoHazewood]

Quick, how many of his of Brooks' GG's didn't he deserve?

I know this was tongue-in-cheek, but I wanted to see just how the numbers shook out.

Brooks was a regular or semi-regular from 1958 through 1976. By retroactive total zone ratings (converted to fielding WAR) among AL third basemen Brooks ranked:

1st 8 times

2nd 7 times

4th twice

5th once

and 12th once (in 1976 as a 39-year-old)

He was clearly a spectacular fielder by almost any measure. In 1959 he led the league in fielding runs at third despite only playing 88 games. But nobody is the best in the world every year for 16 years. In 1970, ironically when he probably cemented his reputation as the human vacuum cleaner in the World Series, Brooks finished 25 runs behind ARod (Aurelio Rodriguez) in fielding runs during the regular season.

[HoustonOrioleFan]

BrOOksie = HOOver...I also remember reading Johnny Bench's quote after Brooks got his Series MVP new car - "hell, if he wanted a car that badly, we (the Reds) would've have gladly chipped in to buy him one"