So how about Brian Roberts today?

[El Gordo]

I know that's not true. Do you have proof of it, or did Ray Charles tell it to you?

Actually Brooks has said this many times but apparently you don't know much about him. He said he had to compensate for the lack of strength by getting rid of the ball quickly, often throwing under hand, and playing in to cut the ball off and shorten the throws.

[MurphDogg]

I always thought Roberts was around average defensively and the numbers bore that out. Chances are, now that he is 35 he will be slightly below average. I didn't realize that this opinion was so controversial.

[Ruzious]

Actually Brooks has said this many times but apparently you don't know much about him. He said he had to compensate for the lack of strength by getting rid of the ball quickly, often throwing under hand, and playing in to cut the ball off and shorten the throws.

Wow. While he didn't have a gun like Graig Nettles or Aurelio Rodriquez, he obviously did have a good throwing arm.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I always thought Roberts was around average defensively and the numbers bore that out. Chances are, now that he is 35 he will be slightly below average. I didn't realize that this opinion was so controversial.

For the most part I agree, but MI's can decline pretty quickly and his last full season (2009) was below average by both DRS (-8)/UZR(-3).

[CA-ORIOLE]

Wow. While he didn't have a gun like Graig Nettles or Aurelio Rodriquez, he obviously did have a good throwing arm.

I'd say Gordo's assessment/quotes are accurate. For a third baseman it was probably below average arm strength, but it was plenty good enough considering his other skills.

[El Gordo]

I always thought Roberts was around average defensively and the numbers bore that out. Chances are, now that he is 35 he will be slightly below average. I didn't realize that this opinion was so controversial.

That's about right. 2004 -2006 he was above average, then 2007-2o11 around average. Last year he was -5.1 UZR in SSS.

[El Gordo]

I'd say Gordo's assessment/quotes are accurate. For a third baseman it was probably below average arm strength, but it was plenty good enough considering his other skills.

The point being that arm strength by itself doesn't define the player. Brooks may have had an average to below average arm, but he knew how to get the most out of it, and he certainly didn't hurt the team. Neither has Roberts, so far even after his injuries he hasn't been that far below average. His one poor year was 2009, and as long as he hits you could live with that level of defense.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Darwin also does not appear tentative with a runner approaching. Probably has not had his arm ripped off and his head handed to him. Give him time . I think Roberts can play a passable second base if he can once again be an offensive minded second baseman. Clubhouse Confidential just did a show on how defense no longer matters because the game has "evolved" into a game of three true outcomes. Pitching and Hitting. Fielding has been devalued. Or so they say. Mark Reynolds and Adam Dunn were shown as poster children. As were Kimbrel and Chapman.

I suppose that makes sense.

We've had the discussion about SO's before. An out is an out overall. I'm not sure I'd call SO's "good outs", but they really don't hurt in the bigger picture. The good factor is probably taking more pitches and potentially taking walks. That doesn't mean striking out means more walks/better production, it just means many guys can have high K rates and maintain good production and there's nothing wrong with that.

In general, offense is in a downward trend. I'd agree that K's have probably increased, walks/obp has generally decreased. IMO, that's probably more a function of loosening the strike zone, but I suppose it could mean better pitching. No doubt modern GMs value power arms and K's. Theoretically that could devalue defense, but I don't think it would be that significant. Last I checked defensive efficiency was also trending positive. Basically, a higher percentage of balls in play are being caught. This is probably due to shifts and more attention to defensive evaluations (imo).

With the decline in offense, speed should becomes more of an efficiency. I'd guess the BE point for steals is down somewhat. It'll also be interesting how the new balk rule affects things.

In my opinion guys with good hit tools and the abilty to drive balls to all fields, and not necessarily the greatest plate discipline (Jones/Davis etc.) could become more valuable. Taking balls on two strike counts anywhere near the strike zone (looking for a walk) seems to be more an more of a negative than a positive.

[CA-ORIOLE]

The point being that arm strength by itself doesn't define the player. Brooks may have had an average to below average arm, but he knew how to get the most out of it, and he certainly didn't hurt the team. Neither has Roberts, so far even after his injuries he hasn't been that far below average. His one poor year was 2009, and as long as he hits you could live with that level of defense.

I agree with you Gordo, but 2009 was Roberts last full year with a significant sample size on defense. I just don't see the post 2009 numbers as that relevant. That's a lot of years, and we're talking about a guy with injury issues, conditioning issues and who is a MI, not a corner infielder. No to mention he's going to be compared relatively to guys who are much younger. Smart positioning could help a lot and a minus 8 with good offensive production would be fine. If he's not hitting, it could be ugly.

A couple games coming up on TV soon, so hopefully we'll get to see more of him.

[El Gordo]

I agree with you Gordo, but 2009 was Roberts last full year with a significant sample size on defense. I just don't see the post 2009 numbers as that relevant. That's a lot of years, and we're talking about a guy with injury issues, conditioning issues and who is a MI, not a corner infielder. No to mention he's going to be compared relatively to guys who are much younger. Smart positioning could help a lot and a minus 8 with good offensive production would be fine. If he's not hitting, it could be ugly.

A couple games coming up on TV soon, so hopefully we'll get to see more of him.

Yes, we will have to see. But even though the sample sizes are small I don't think it's a hard and fast rule that his decline in range will lead to his being a defensive liability. Andino was great at turning the DP, but his range was not that impressive and his bat was poor. Roberts defense could be steadier, his range not much worse and his ability to have QAB, could more than make up for it.

[25 Nuggets]

Boy would it be a boon for the Orioles if Roberts can get back to his 2B-machine days... one can only hope.

The interesting thing is, if Roberts is capable of being the every-day starter at 2B, the Orioles will have a switch hitter backed up by another switch hitter in Casilla. Casilla would I assume also back up Hardy at SS. But I wouldn't know what substitution patterns would work. Lemme see:

Roberts is definitely better as a LH against RHP (career OPS split: .788 vs .712) and so is Casilla (.649 vs .621). Brian is historically better at both sides of the plate than Casilla but the gulf is wider against RHP. I guess, then, that Casilla would spend some time at 2B vs tough lefties, but I dunno. Perhaps it would be better if Casilla play some games with starting pitchers on the mound who have higher GB rates.

[UpstateNYfan]

I really hope that BR has some success in his final season as an Oriole. After the years of being around losing, at the minimum he deserves that. He seems to be a worker, he came back strong from the arm injury, DT asked him to work on his hitting from the right side and he did. Defensively he is probably average at best. I don't know if anyone here ever noticed, but on routine third out plays where there is an "easier" throw for the force out at second, he is often not there. I've seen shortstops and third basemen look there and have to change there throws. Easy flips from the SS, not there. I don't know why he's not there, but I hope there is enough burn in his belly to play the game right, as it was taught 100% of the time.

[markakis8]

1% of O's fans are probably bullish on Roberts' ability to come back and make a positive impact this year. 1% are probably totally writing off the possibility. The other 98% of us are mostly not confident, but regardless are in wait and see mode. Incredibly (actually not so much so since I've been around a while), we spend multiple pages of heated discussion driven by the premise that our minds have to be made up now.

This thread needs a therapist.

I will just add that I'm definitely on the negative side of the spectrum on this issue. My expectations are low and any animosity I have stems from the feeling that Brian's name and the number of 0's on his contract means the fix is in in his favor for at least April. That really bothers me because April games are just as meaningful in the standings as September games, and I don't think we have enough margin for error to potentially sacrifice real games starting in April.

IMO, the O's should absolutely do the organization and the man a solid and give him every opportunity to prove his value. 6 weeks of spring training is a long time. It's plenty of time to assess his defensive range, arm, coordination, baserunning instincts, batting approach and potential for production.

I doubt anyone really has any problem with that plan. The division comes in when judgement day arrives. If Buck/DD keep him around without the right indications for his productive potential this year, people will be mad.

Now, let's hope he's one of our best players this spring and leaves no doubt that he should be our OD 2B. I think that's incredibly unlikely, but damn if I don't hope it happens.

I appreciate this well thought out post and do not blame you for how you feel at all. I'm obviously one of the BRob supporters but I have always understood any fan's doubts about his play coming into this season. It won't stop me from pointing out his positives, especially if he plays like he did a couple days ago.

[markakis8]

I'm in this camp.

As Frobby pointed out, he does look stronger this year and I hope he proves he isn't done but I'm pretty skeptical. The odds just aren't in his favor. My concern isn't that the Orioles are giving playing time to a player that, in my opinion, is likely done--through tenure and hard work, Roberts has certainly earned his shot--my concern is that they'll keep trotting him out through all of April and May and into June out of deference. If he isn't producing, the leash should be fairly short.

We've got two pretty capable replacements, both of which may have a future with the team, while Roberts likely does not. I personally want to see Flaherty get 60-70% of the playing time if not more to see if he can be a long term solution.

This is what I don't get. What exactly has Casilla or Flaherty done in their careers that makes them "capable replacements?" I can maybe see the argument for Flaherty as he hasn't had much of a chance to prove his worth at the MLB level, but Casilla is what..28 or 29? Career OPS of .640? Brian Roberts did slightly better than the the past 3 years playing through injuries and concussion symptoms.

[Ruzious]

Ok I'm fine with Roberts at second.

...as long as he's allowed to bring a walker and a slingshot out to the field with him.