Adam Jones' slightly improved plate discipline from last year has disappeared.

[centralpaosfan]

Like I said, 1988 all over again. Maybe closer to '87 at this point, it was a long time ago.

This is what I don't get. Is Adam beyond reproach?

[centralpaosfan]

First off, I think it's crazy to think Jones doesn't recognize he'd be a better player if he had better plate discipline.

And I'm also not convinced that having him just take anything vaguely slider like down in the count would do anything to help his productivity. You have no idea that radically altering his approach at the plate would do to his hitting. It's possible that a very passive Adam Jones will still lack the ability to identify pitches very well at this level, and he just becomes a mess, swinging at bad pitches while letting a lot more hittable ones go by.

We may all wish Adam Jones had Ted Williams plate discipline. But he doesn't. And he won't. Treating him like a misbehaving schoolkid won't do a thing to change that.

Point taken. Would it be out of line to take someone with his plate discipline and have him bat 6th or 7th?

[Can_of_corn]

This is what I don't get. Is Adam beyond reproach?

Of course not. I am just reminded of certain events in 1987 and 1988.

Matters concerning wealth and effort level for instance.

[centralpaosfan]

Of course not. I am just reminded of certain events in 1987 and 1988.

Matters concerning wealth and effort level for instance.

Ok...I understand where you're coming from now. Regardless of how much I bash AJ, I will be screaming my head off this weekend for him and all the other O's!

[webbrick2010]

Of course taking every 0-2 or 1-2 pitch would result in every pitcher throwing him a pitch down the middle for strike three about four games after he started that silliness.

It's a game of adjustments and counter adjustments

AJ refuses to adjust to the fact that no one is pitching in the zone when he is down 0-2 or 1-2

For that matter they never throw in the zone when it is 3-2... you can feel AJ's impatience and considering he has walked 8 times all years it is a certainty that he will swing at whatever you throw, wherever you throw it.

[Can_of_corn]

It's a game of adjustments and counter adjustments

AJ refuses to adjust to the fact that no one is pitching in the zone when he is down 0-2 or 1-2

For that matter they never throw in the zone when it is 3-2... you can feel AJ's impatience and considering he has walked 8 times all years it is a certainty that he will swing at whatever you throw, wherever you throw it.

You do realize that your statement is contradictory right?

[LookinUp]

It's possible that a very passive Adam Jones will still lack the ability to identify pitches very well at this level, and he just becomes a mess, swinging at bad pitches while letting a lot more hittable ones go by.

We may all wish Adam Jones had Ted Williams plate discipline. But he doesn't. And he won't.

[iNSERT DRUNGO RESPONSE ABOUT THE # OF TOTAL PLAYERS EVER WITH PLATE DISCIPLINE LIKE TED WILLIAMS.]

If I may try to channel the other poster, I think what he's doing is venting his frustration about the fact that we've seen this from Jones for years now without any apparent (at best minimal) progress. Understanding the challenge any player has in pitch recognition, plate approach, etc., is it so much for fans to ask a player to improve in this regard as time passes? Should we just assume that he's doing everything he can and leave it at that? Alternatively, is it fair to assume that a player of his talent and experience isn't putting in enough time working on his approach as evidenced by the lack of improvement in his results?

I genuinely don't know the answers. Maybe baseball is a hard enough sport that the maintenance of many statistical measures (and growth of some, to be fair) is evidence enough that the player is putting in the necessary work. Either way, I think it's a worthy discussion absent the logical leaps to ego or $$ being the blame.

[El Gordo]

The only problem I have with Jones is batting such an undisciplined hitter #4. Bat him #3 or #6.

[isestrex]

Of course taking every 0-2 or 1-2 pitch would result in every pitcher throwing him a pitch down the middle for strike three about four games after he started that silliness.

Jones is hitting .316 on 0-2 counts this year... <a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h367/isestrex/Emoticons/wasnt-me.gif" border="0" alt=" photo wasnt-me.gif"/></a>

...and .151 on 1-2 counts

[isestrex]

The only problem I have with Jones is batting such an undisciplined hitter #4. Bat him #3 or #6.

I agree with this and almost put it in my opening post. I think (in addition to the fear of Jones turning into current day Josh Hamilton) that his best eventual lineup slot will be 5th or 6th.

[Can_of_corn]

[iNSERT DRUNGO RESPONSE ABOUT THE # OF TOTAL PLAYERS EVER WITH PLATE DISCIPLINE LIKE TED WILLIAMS.]

If I may try to channel the other poster, I think what he's doing is venting his frustration about the fact that we've seen this from Jones for years now without any apparent (at best minimal) progress. Understanding the challenge any player has in pitch recognition, plate approach, etc., is it so much for fans to ask a player to improve in this regard as time passes? Should we just assume that he's doing everything he can and leave it at that? Alternatively, is it fair to assume that a player of his talent and experience isn't putting in enough time working on his approach as evidenced by the lack of improvement in his results?

I genuinely don't know the answers. Maybe baseball is a hard enough sport that the maintenance of many statistical measures (and growth of some, to be fair) is evidence enough that the player is putting in the necessary work. Either way, I think it's a worthy discussion absent the logical leaps to ego or $$ being the blame.

I think it is safe to assume that:

Every hitter would benefit from increased plate discipline and/or pitch recognition. (Even Williams didn't care for the Slider)

Very nearly every hitter works to improve his plate discipline and/or pitch recognition

Since there isn't a substantial increase in plate discipline and pitch recognition as a player accrues MLB service time I think we can state that they are difficult skills to master.

[El Gordo]

I agree with this and almost put it in my opening post. I think (in addition to the fear of Jones turning into current day Josh Hamilton) that his best eventual lineup slot will be 5th or 6th.

Not 5th. I don't want him batting behind Davis. Crush would get more BB's than Bonds.

[isestrex]

Not 5th. I don't want him batting behind Davis. Crush would get more BB's than Bonds.

And that would be a bad thing? <a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h367/isestrex/Emoticons/huh.gif" border="0" alt=" photo huh.gif"/></a>

[NickM21]

I think right now I might go with McClouth-Machado-Davis-Markakis-Jones-Wieters-Hardy-Flaherty-DH. At least this way Davis gets some protection. I trust Markakis to put up solid at bats if Davis is walked. It'd be nice if Wieters was the offensive juggernaut we dreamed of right?

[Can_of_corn]

I think right now I might go with McClouth-Machado-Davis-Markakis-Jones-Wieters-Hardy-Flaherty-DH. At least this way Davis gets some protection. I trust Markakis to put up solid at bats if Davis is walked. It'd be nice if Wieters was the offensive juggernaut we dreamed of right?

You do not bat the team's best hitter third.

Also, protection is a myth, Davis is doing just fine without protection this season.