Joe Sheehan

[davearm]

Millar's a below average 1B that makes a below average amount of money for a 1B ($3.8MM vs a positional average of $7.4MM). Calling him overpaid is a stretch.

If that's what he thinks, then he should've said that. His point was nowhere near that nuanced.

I think it's pretty obvious from the tone of Sheehan's writing that he was insulting the Orioles out of spite. He didn't like Steele's article, it made him angry, so he lashed out at the Orioles.

There are plenty of legitimate criticisms to be made about the Orioles and their rebuilding. I've made them myself, and some people have made them in this thread.

That doesn't mean that every criticism of the Orioles is correct.

Sheehan overswung and whiffed, in my opinion. When a writer says something factually incorrect to be spiteful, I'm not going to let them off the hook because there is a nugget of truth in what they say.

Jay Mariotti would be proud.

Now we're getting to the bottom of this thing.

It isn't the message that's the problem, it's the messenger.

If any number of longstanding and respected posters here would've written these words, the reaction would've been very mild, and the general point would've been readily conceded with almost no disagreement. Heck Sheehan's general point *has* been made, and readily conceded with almost no disagreement, on this board repeatedly over time.

But since this particular piece was written by the dastardly national media with its perceived anti-O's agenda that's constantly out to get the O's, then it's "obvious" the writer is "lashing out" and "insulting the O's out of spite."

Maybe that, or maybe some folks are being way oversensitive and reflexively defensive, and bemoaning a sinister attack that's much more imagined than real.

[Sports Guy]

Considering these thoughts I would rebut it with:

1) Rebuilding doesn't happen instantly and thus there will always be someone who doesn't belong while the process is still in progress. If this time next year you still see the problem being outlined today, then I would give it more weight.

.

Can we please stop with this? This is such an annoying statement.

Rebuilding happens at the pace you choose...AM could have definitely done more than he did but he chose not to.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Can we please stop with this? This is such an annoying statement.

Rebuilding happens at the pace you choose...AM could have definitely done more than he did but he chose not to.

Just because it doesn't happen at the speed you want it to doesn't mean it isn't true.

Rebuilding doesn't have to take three-four years, but it also does not happen in one offseason.

[Sports Guy]

Just because it doesn't happen at the speed you want it to doesn't mean it isn't true.

Rebuilding doesn't have to take three-four years, but it also does not happen in one offseason.

Rebuilding should happen at the speed the situation dictates...If good players are there to be had, then you make the deals...its that simple.

We had a good deal for BRob..Should have made it.

Gus like Milledge and quentin were available...Should have made a better effort(especially for Milledge).

We could have likely traded off some other pieces but it didn't happen...Should have gotten a SS and didn't do it.

The "speed" is only an issue because moves could have been made and weren't.

Just because rebuilding doesn't have to be done overnight, it doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't do as much as possible when you can.

[Crazysilver03]

Can we please stop with this? This is such an annoying statement.

Rebuilding happens at the pace you choose...AM could have definitely done more than he did but he chose not to.

MacPhail traded away his two most trade-able pieces in Bedard and Tejada.

Roberts and possibly Walker/Bradford could have gotten a decent return.

After that, we dont have players, that we would trade, that would bring back substantial returns.

[ChrisAF79]

Can we please stop with this? This is such an annoying statement.

Rebuilding happens at the pace you choose...AM could have definitely done more than he did but he chose not to.

What else could he have done to speed up the process though? Trade Roberts? That's only one more move, and we're not even sure what the final return would have been. If it included Gallagher, Cedeno, etc. would we really be that much closer to the ultimate goal of our rebuild? I don't believe so. Gallagher is redundant given our pitching strengths, Cedeno probably wouldn't even adequately replace Roberts, and I'm skeptical the other guys supposedly offered would have helped much either.

What should MacPhail be doing right now to speed this process up? I really don't know.

[Sports Guy]

MacPhail traded away his two most trade-able pieces in Bedard and Tejada.

Roberts and possibly Walker/Bradford could have gotten a decent return.

After that, we dont have players, that we would trade, that would bring back substantial returns.

We could have traded Ramon and cash for Milledge i bet...We know that was being talked about when Duq was here per BB and they didn't get much more than that.

But guess what...BRob and one or both of those relievers is a big difference to what we have now.

[Sports Guy]

What else could he have done to speed up the process though? Trade Roberts? That's only one more move, and we're not even sure what the final return would have been. If it included Gallagher, Cedeno, etc. would we really be that much closer to the ultimate goal of our rebuild? I don't believe so. Gallagher is redundant given our pitching strengths, Cedeno probably wouldn't even adequately replace Roberts, and I'm skeptical the other guys supposedly offered would have helped much either.

What should MacPhail be doing right now to speed this process up? I really don't know.

of course we would...Another solid arm like Gallagher makes it that much easier to deal DCab and/or Guthrie.

Cedeno gives us our potential everyday SS.

Ceda would have made it easier to trade Sherrill.

Veal gives us another arm that we could add to the depth.

We would definitely be in better shape.

[ChrisAF79]

We could have traded Ramon and cash for Milledge i bet...We know that was being talked about when Duq was here per BB and they didn't get much more than that.

But guess what...BRob and one or both of those relievers is a big difference to what we have now.

I would take that bet. The Mets got Ryan Church (very solid outfilelder) AND a decent inexpensive catcher in the deal for Milledge. That deal is undoubtedly better than Ramon and cash for Milledge.

[Mackus]

Gus like Milledge and quentin were available...Should have made a better effort(especially for Milledge).

I think its clear that they passed on Milledge, even at a discount, for character reasons. I don't neccesarily agree with their assessment on Milledge as a problem, but its hard to argue too much with the philosophy of not going after guys who they deem as potential problems off the field.

[Sports Guy]

I would take that bet. The Mets got Ryan Church (very solid outfilelder) AND a decent inexpensive catcher in the deal for Milledge. That deal is undoubtedly better than Ramon and cash for Milledge.

Church is having a very nice year(myself and many others have wanted the Orioles to acquire him over the last few years) and has always had upside but going into that trade, he wasn't much more than a throw in.

Schneider is ok but nothing special.

The deal probably would have had to be expanded but, as I said, BB did tell us about the Ramon/milledge rumors and I bet if we were willing to eat half his contract or something like that, the Mets would have been interested.

[Sports Guy]

I think its clear that they passed on Milledge, even at a discount, for character reasons. I don't neccesarily agree with their assessment on Milledge as a problem, but its hard to argue too much with the philosophy of not going after guys who they deem as potential problems off the field.

Yea..Can't have guys making rap albums on the team!

I agree with what you are saying and that is why they passed though...That and AM probably didn't want to eat a lot of money.

[ChrisAF79]

of course we would...Another solid arm like Gallagher makes it that much easier to deal DCab and/or Guthrie.

Cedeno gives us our potential everyday SS.

Ceda would have made it easier to trade Sherrill.

Veal gives us another arm that we could add to the depth.

We would definitely be in better shape.

I disagree that we'd "definitely" be in better shape. For starters, I highly doubt that Ceda would have been included in any deal for Roberts. Secondly, we already have enough depth to trade Cabrera or Guthrie...Gallagher doesn't really do anything much to change that. Same goes for Veal. We could trade Sherrill right now and replace him with an already in-house option (Johnson, etc.). I just don't consider the depth we'd gain with Veal to be all that valuable consider what we already have on the DL (Bierd, FCabrera, Loewen) or the minors (McCrory, Mickolio).

All the while we'd probably be struggling with some combination of Cedeno/LH/Bynum manning the middle infield. There is no doubt in my mind that without Roberts here, this team would worse off right now (and possibly the future as well).

[ChrisAF79]

Church is having a very nice year(myself and many others have wanted the Orioles to acquire him over the last few years) and has always had upside but going into that trade, he wasn't much more than a throw in.

I'd say Schneider was the throw-in, not Church. Church is very much in the same league as a Luke Scott. Somewhat under-valued and under-appreciated, but a very solid contributor. He's still on the better side of 30 (barely) as well.

Ramon is an older catcher who's been trending downward for years. Even with the O's throwing some cash into the deal, there's no way the Mets would have found the value to be greater than that of Church/Schneider.

[Sports Guy]

For starters, I highly doubt that Ceda would have been included in any deal for Roberts

.Well, the reports say you are wrong about that.

Secondly, we already have enough depth to trade Cabrera or Guthrie...Gallagher doesn't really do anything much to change that

Of course he does...He is a ML ready talent and Edmonds recently comapred his stuff to Chris Carpenter. He isn't someone who is 1+ years away.

Same goes for Veal.

Veal just adds talent to the organization..Is that a bad thing?

We could trade Sherrill right now and replace him with an already in-house option (Johnson, etc.). I just don't consider the depth we'd gain with Veal to be all that valuable consider what we already have on the DL (Bierd, FCabrera, Loewen) or the minors (McCrory, Mickolio).

Of course we can still trade Sherrill...But Ceda, a future closer or set up guy, makes it even easier.

Just agree to disagree...Not one point you have made i even remotely agree with, so its easier to just stop debating this.