Dan plays the waiting game again

[Tx Oriole]

51 minutes ago, Lucky_13 said:

Maybe this means we're in on the bigger fish like Darvish and have no time for Chatwood

 

LOL

Yea sure. And I am looking forward to seeing Santa. ?

[PAOriolesFan]

13 minutes ago, twinedenter said:

Umm you do realize the ERA of the starters under Dan is almost 5? Somewhere in there you have to put the blame on him. 8th in payroll...owners fault?

 

Eddie is right. Angelos has never wanted to pony up the amount of money for FA pitching. I can't blame him some of the time, but to simply blame Dan for the inactivity is short sighted. The payroll is bloated in part because of the Davis contract, which as it's been mentioned was a deal that Angelos himself negotiated.

[eddie83]

22 minutes ago, twinedenter said:

Umm you do realize the ERA of the starters under Dan is almost 5? Somewhere in there you have to put the blame on him. 8th in payroll...owners fault?

 

Dan takes over and adds pitching. Hammel, Chen and Gonzalez. Club goes to the playoffs. Biggest difference from 2011 and 12 was the pitching. The lineup continues to progress. Dan inherited that but his additions along with Tillman lead the staff. 

As the years progress outside of Tillman none of the young pitchers he inherits pan out, Arrieta, Matusz etc. Dan gets criticized for dealing Jake. The second Jake gets out the door he tells the Cubs let me pitch my way and immediately has success. I love Buck but McDowell is his 6th pitching coach. I have never heard one good word about Adair who was Buck’s guy.

I  have zero issue with criticism of Dan, that said some things I can’t grasp. People expect Dan to add quality pitching while the club has been contending. Meanwhile when the club stunk for 14 years and had much higher draft picks in general they whiffed. So now when the team has in general won since he has been here people think building a rotation with the limits he is has is easy? The 2 best starters on the team are Top 5 picks. Bundy lost 3 years and now Harvey has basically had the same thing happen to him. When Andy was here all he did was try to add young pieces, we never won. 

Dan lost 2 number 1 picks for Ubaldo and Gallardo, dealt Davies for Parra, all bad. That said what does he have working in his favor?

A team that spends on starters? No.

A team that invests Internationally which increases depth in your system? No. 

An owner who seems to grasp how the sport works? No. 

A losing team like MacPhail had which is strictly trying to add young talent and has higher draft picks? No   

Standard team physicals? No, the strictest in the game. 

The Orioles team payroll is irrelevant when talking about starting pitching. 

[eddie83]

25 minutes ago, Going Underground said:

Two TJ surgeries. He was not coming here unless the Orioles way overpaid and maybe even not then.

So a pitcher with TJ surgery who needs to be overpaid to come here with our owner. I’m sure the team physical would have went well.  

[twinedenter]

26 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

Dan takes over and adds pitching. Hammel, Chen and Gonzalez. Club goes to the playoffs. Biggest difference from 2011 and 12 was the pitching. The lineup continues to progress. Dan inherited that but his additions along with Tillman lead the staff. 

As the years progress outside of Tillman none of the young pitchers he inherits pan out, Arrieta, Matusz etc. Dan gets criticized for dealing Jake. The second Jake gets out the door he tells the Cubs let me pitch my way and immediately has success. I love Buck but McDowell is his 6th pitching coach. I have never heard one good word about Adair who was Buck’s guy.

I  have zero issue with criticism of Dan, that said some things I can’t grasp. People expect Dan to add quality pitching while the club has been contending. Meanwhile when the club stunk for 14 years and had much higher draft picks in general they whiffed. So now when the team has in general won since he has been here people think building a rotation with the limits he is has is easy? The 2 best starters on the team are Top 5 picks. Bundy lost 3 years and now Harvey has basically had the same thing happen to him. When Andy was here all he did was try to add young pieces, we never won. 

Dan lost 2 number 1 picks for Ubaldo and Gallardo, dealt Davies for Parra, all bad. That said what does he have working in his favor?

A team that spends on starters? No.

A team that invests Internationally which increases depth in your system? No. 

An owner who seems to grasp how the sport works? No. 

A losing team like MacPhail had which is strictly trying to add young talent and has higher draft picks? No   

Standard team physicals? No, the strictest in the game. 

The Orioles team payroll is irrelevant when talking about starting pitching. 

-Yes your correct. Early on, Dan make some solid decisions and we won. (Of course the core was pretty damn good)

-Arrieta wasn't Dan's fault. 

-Dan has been drafting for 6 years now and as for starting pitching he produced? Gausman. Not very much after 6 years. He is in charge of the minor league system, correct?

-Am I not correct in saying the O's back to back years spent on starting pitching? Bad starting pitching, but is that Angelos's fault?

-Payroll is far from irrelevant. Even excluding Davis 25, we are still at 140 and have been a .500 team for the last 3 years. MacPhail won 6 less games than Duquette did last year, with a payroll of 70 million dollars less. 

-They are in this position of needing 3 starters in one off-season because of ALL the depth Duquette acquired, were so bad, they didn't even stay in the organization. Garbage in, garbage out. 

-When your 25th in pitching in 16' and you don't improve the product, your incompetent. Its really that simple. All that "hands tied by owner" stuff doesn't change the fact that for the past 4 years, Duquette has been downright POOR in bringing in starting pitching talent. 

 

 

[spiritof66]

Two points about trying to improve the starting pitching.

The first is that both Duquette and posters have referred to adding three starters to fill out a five-man rotation. You can't go into a season with just five potentially capable starters. IMO we need to bring in three new arms to compete for a spot  That's fewer dollars per arm.

Second, I am guessing -- and I really mean I'm guessing -- that an element adding to the challenge facing the Orioles is a desire to sign starters for just a year or two, in the hope that cost-controlled guys in the system will be ready to joinj Bundy and Gausman in 2019 or 2020.  I haven't studied this, but it seems that pitchers who are coming off a down year or an injury and are willing to sign for a "prove-I'm-back" year are fewer, and worse, than they used to be (or than position players in comparable situations). Pitchers who can command longer contracts, avoiding the risk of injury and surgery (TJ and otherwise) for a few years, seem to ask for and get three years and up, even though it means giving up the opportunity to sign for more if they succeed under a short-term contract. That's my impression, anyway. 

[eddie83]

1 minute ago, twinedenter said:

-Yes your correct. Early on, Dan make some solid decisions and we won. (Of course the core was pretty damn good)

-Arrieta wasn't Dan's fault. 

-Dan has been drafting for 6 years now and as for starting pitching he produced? Gausman. Not very much after 6 years. He is in charge of the minor league system, correct?

-Am I not correct in saying the O's back to back years spent on starting pitching? Bad starting pitching, but is that Angelos's fault?

-Payroll is far from irrelevant. Even excluding Davis 25, we are still at 140 and have been a .500 team for the last 3 years.

-They are in this position of needing 3 starters in one off-season because of ALL the depth Duquette acquired, were so bad, they didn't even stay in the organization. Garbage in, garbage out.

-When your 25th in pitching in 16' and you don't improve the product, your incompetent. Its really that simple. All that "hands tied by owner" stuff doesn't change the fact that for the past 3-4 years, Duquette has been downright poor in bringing in starting pitching talent. 

 

 

-Payroll is irrelevant in terms of starting pitching. In the winter of 13/14 Cashman added Tanaka who did not even cost a pick, we add Ubaldo. Does that make Cashman smarter? How many outsiders come the AL East and have success who come on the cheap? Dan blew picks on Ubaldo and Gallardo, he has to own that. The fact that those are the type of pitchers he can bring in speaks to issues out of his hands.  

-Dan or the person he hired is in charge, correct. Dan’s first pick was Gausman. I still think that is a solid pick. Harvey is a legit talent, he got hurt. I have said this a million times the idea that some teams draft and develop all their starters is a myth. The Nats signed Scherzer, traded for Gonzalez and Roark. You or I could have drafted Strasburg. The quality of their overall organization helps them. 

 

[theobird]

Its the same old same old. Sitting on the hands, waiting for bargains late in the off season and hoping to get lucky. Sorry fella's I am getting a little worn out by this administration.

 

[Aristotelian]

48 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

So a pitcher with TJ surgery who needs to be overpaid to come here with our owner. I’m sure the team physical would have went well.  

Sure, you just leak to the press that the pitcher is damaged goods, then sign him for pennies on the dollar. Works every time.

[eddie83]

3 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Sure, you just leak to the press that the pitcher is damaged goods, then sign him for pennies on the dollar. Works every time.

Or you could just accept a good offer from a good team and be happy. 

[tntoriole]

28 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

-Payroll is irrelevant in terms of starting pitching. In the winter of 13/14 Cashman added Tanaka who did not even cost a pick, we add Ubaldo. Does that make Cashman smarter? How many outsiders come the AL East and have success who come on the cheap? Dan blew picks on Ubaldo and Gallardo, he has to own that. The fact that those are the type of pitchers he can bring in speaks to issues out of his hands.  

-Dan or the person he hired is in charge, correct. Dan’s first pick was Gausman. I still think that is a solid pick. Harvey is a legit talent, he got hurt. I have said this a million times the idea that some teams draft and develop all their starters is a myth. The Nats signed Scherzer, traded for Gonzalez and Roark. You or I could have drafted Strasburg. The quality of their overall organization helps them. 

 

Dan has to own picking Ubaldo and also not picking Ervin Santana...that is not on the owner...he has to own picking Gallardo, he has to own not extending Nick, which led to Travis Snider, which led to losing Stephen Brault, then Snider being inept led to Parra which meant losing Zach Davies.   Then he chooses to save money by cutting a serviceable veteran pitcher in Miggy Gonzalez for no return at all, except 5 million to spend on Wade Miley and then choosing Tyler Wilson and Mike Wright instead thinking this is what pennant contenders with already marginal pitching should do. 

I am sorry but Dan’s choices in many of his trades and his offseason pitching signings later in his tenure have been awful, no matter the limitations from ownership.  And during a time when even a bit better starting pitching would have gotten us a long way from 2015-2017. 

[tntoriole]

Cubs sign Chatwood,  if they win on Ohtani they will not sign Cobb, if they lose on Ohtani, they will sign Cobb.   

We will get Miggy Gonzalez,  Tillman on a one year deal and Castro. 

[osfan83]

33 minutes ago, theobird said:

Its the same old same old. Sitting on the hands, waiting for bargains late in the off season and hoping to get lucky. Sorry fella's I am getting a little worn out by this administration.

 

Remind me, Did McPhail jump early into the free agency pond? How about Flanny and Jim D? 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, osfan83 said:

Remind me, Did McPhail jump early into the free agency pond? How about Flanny and Jim D? 

Flanny and Jim sure did.

[tntoriole]

12 minutes ago, osfan83 said:

Remind me, Did McPhail jump early into the free agency pond? How about Flanny and Jim D? 

Andy's strength was  trades...his free agent signings outside of Koji were awful...Michael Gonzalez anyone?   lol.    But Andy's first winter did include that little deal sending Bedard to the Mariners...so there is that.  I am still waiting for as bold and successful a move as that from this GM.   And you didn't mention Pat Gillick who jumped in pretty fast and hard, like signing free agents Rafael Palmeiro, Robby Alomar, BJ Surhoff, Randy Myers...