Machado to the Dodgers, 5-1 deal

[Philip]

31 minutes ago, SteveA said:

No it won't.

Well he has to give one in order for us to judge whether it is revealing or not, and so far he hasn’t. I am unclear whether the question has even been asked.

[Hallas]

6 hours ago, Philip said:

That is only partially true if Dan were clamoring to trade Manny the previous year and Management refused to allow it.

But part of being a GM is knowing more than Ownership and being able to guide Ownership to accepting your vision. They write the checks, the GM is supposed to make decisions. Assuming Dan had his hands tied(and we don’t know how much he agreed with Ownership) it is to his discredit that he was unable to explain why the current path was straight to Doom. And too many trades like the Matusz/Webb fiascos, the Parra trade and such, indicate that he was too weak to make his point. And even with a seemingly free hand, Dan had lousy judgement.

It is completely moot now, but I stand by my comment. Dan was a fool, he is well away and should have been sooner.

I think reasonable minds can disagree on whether some of his trades were good moves - I'd probably be in agreement with you on many of them.  But Duquette was at the helm for the only playoff baseball that the Orioles have seen in the last 20+ years, and his teams were in contention up until August 2017.  I'm not sure why you would have forced him out sooner than at the end of his contract.

[Philip]

12 minutes ago, Hallas said:

I think reasonable minds can disagree on whether some of his trades were good moves - I'd probably be in agreement with you on many of them.  But Duquette was at the helm for the only playoff baseball that the Orioles have seen in the last 20+ years, and his teams were in contention up until August 2017.  I'm not sure why you would have forced him out sooner than at the end of his contract.

Well, that’s another question entirely. Dan made some moves in 2012 that helped the team in 2012, but he was always thinking for the moment and he was willing to sacrifice the future for the moment. When the trades work for the moment, that’s great but when they don’t that’s terrible. Parra and Snider were two “for the present” trades that were awful in themselves but also sacrificed the future. All three pitchers made the Majors and of course Zach Davies has had a fine career.

Any GM can be good for a season, a good GM is one who is good for multiple seasons, who can work for the present while also preparing for the future, who avoids stupid trades and has the power of personality to persuade against stupid moves. Trading away draft picks in the Webb and Matusz trades just to unload some insignificant-by baseball standards-salary is stupid, especially when you’ve sacrificed meaningful picks already by signing Jiminez-which was itself stupid- and Cruz-which was NOT stupid. It was, however, arguable luck because Cruz had already agreed to a deal with Seattle but backed out when Seattle wouldn’t agree to let him regularly play the field, and Dan dashed in and snapped him up.

Anyway more and more. No need to rehash it, but I’d recommend the Brisbee article to you. It lists everything Dan did and didn’t do. 

[LA2]

2 minutes ago, Philip said:

Well, that’s another question entirely. Dan made some moves in 2012 that helped the team in 2012, but he was always thinking for the moment and he was willing to sacrifice the future for the moment. When the trades work for the moment, that’s great but when they don’t that’s terrible. Parra and Snider were two “for the present” trades that were awful in themselves but also sacrificed the future. All three pitchers made the Majors and of course Zach Davies has had a fine career.

Any GM can be good for a season, a good GM is one who is good for multiple seasons, who can work for the present while also preparing for the future, who avoids stupid trades and has the power of personality to persuade against stupid moves. Trading away draft picks in the Webb and Matusz trades just to unload some insignificant-by baseball standards-salary is stupid, especially when you’ve sacrificed meaningful picks already by signing Jiminez-which was itself stupid- and Cruz-which was NOT stupid. It was, however, arguable luck because Cruz had already agreed to a deal with Seattle but backed out when Seattle wouldn’t agree to let him regularly play the field, and Dan dashed in and snapped him up.

Anyway more and more. No need to rehash it, but I’d recommend the Brisbee article to you. It lists everything Dan did and didn’t do. 

A criteria that Duquette more than met.

[Philip]

10 minutes ago, LA2 said:

A criteria that Duquette more than met.

The team was good in 12 and 14, squeaked in in 16, and remanded downwards since.

Dans moves or non moves cost us in 13 and 15, and in 16 too even though we managed to participate in the WC game.

You're suggesting Dan was the reason for the success and I’m saying he isn’t. He was much more responsible for our lapses.

A better GM would have had more success, and the fall from the cliff would not have been so drastic.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Philip

[LA2]

10 minutes ago, Philip said:

The team was good in 12 and 14, squeaked in in 16, and remanded downwards since.

Dans moves or non moves cost us in 13 and 15, and in 16 too even though we managed to participate in the WC game.

You're suggesting Dan was the reason for the success and I’m saying he isn’t. He was much more responsible for our lapses.

According to my math, 2012, 2014, and 2016 comprise three seasons and that counts as "multiple," which was the criteria you set in your post. The Orioles almost made it to the World Series in 2014 two years after Duquette wowed the whole league with the way he handled the O's roster in 2012. I'm not going to argue with your hatred of Dan Duquette, but there were certainly a lot of other crucial factors beyond his control during the disappointing Oriole seasons.

[Philip]

2 minutes ago, LA2 said:

According to my math, 2012, 2014, and 2016 comprise three seasons and that counts as "multiple," which was the criteria you set in your post. The Orioles almost made it to the World Series in 2014 two years after Duquette wowed the whole league with the way he handled the O's roster in 2012. I'm not going to argue with your hatred of Dan Duquette, but there were certainly a lot of other crucial factors beyond his control during the disappointing Oriole seasons.

There’s no need to rehash it, he’s gone, I have reasons for everything I said, I have, multiple times, justified everything I’ve said, It’s fruitless to rehash it, because we are in a new era. I remember my upset when he did one stupid thing after another and then would make condescending comments about marbles.

He’s gone, move on.

 

[spiritof66]

On 5/24/2021 at 10:50 AM, Philip said:

That is only partially true if Dan were clamoring to trade Manny the previous year and Management refused to allow it.

But part of being a GM is knowing more than Ownership and being able to guide Ownership to accepting your vision. They write the checks, the GM is supposed to make decisions. Assuming Dan had his hands tied(and we don’t know how much he agreed with Ownership) it is to his discredit that he was unable to explain why the current path was straight to Doom. And too many trades like the Matusz/Webb fiascos, the Parra trade and such, indicate that he was too weak to make his point. And even with a seemingly free hand, Dan had lousy judgement.

It is completely moot now, but I stand by my comment. Dan was a fool, he is well away and should have been sooner.

As applied to the Orioles under Peter Angelos, especially in 2010-17 when he was determined to get to a World Series before departing this mortal coil: