Who would you not trade?

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, weams said:

WAR is tainted by the ineffective defensive metrics which definitely do not span eras. Mays was pretty darned good. I watched him some. It was harder then. 

Must have been rough with all those guys throwing 90 MPH heat.

[weams]

7 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Must have been rough with all those guys throwing 90 MPH heat.

Yeah. I did not know how hard they did throw. Every fan fiction in the stands did not have a "gun." Feller was fast.  McDowell was sudden. Gibson threw real hard. Real hard. Some say that Satchel Paige threw 85. In his sixties. Steve Dalkowski and Nolan Ryan may have thrown harder than anyone. 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, weams said:

Yeah. I did not know how hard they did throw. Every fan fiction in the stands did not have a "gun." Feller was fast.  McDowell was sudden. Gibson threw real hard. Real hard. Some say that Satchel Paige threw 85. In his sixties. Steve Dalkowski and Nolan Ryan may have thrown harder than anyone. 

I'm sure some guys threw hard.

I'm sure most of them didn't throw near as hard or have near the offspeed pitches that they do today.

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Hallas said:

The notion that no one is untouchable is sort of silly and doesn't add anything to the conversation.  Of course no one is untouchable.  If we got into a 3-way trade with the Astros and the Angels, and received Mike Trout and Yordan Alvarez back in return for AR, I'd drive Adley to the airport myself.  But everyone knows that is not a realistic trade proposal.  If a player is not worth trading for any package that a team would remotely offer up, then they are untouchable.  And frankly unless you're down on any of our top prospects for some reason they should all be untouchable.  Means is probably in the same boat.  Mancini I wouldn't trade, but I can see the argument for.

This happens with all speculative trade threads like this.  There are players you'd probably not trade in a real life scenario on a team in the Orioles' situation.  They have at least several of those, maybe a half-dozen or more.  Then there's the players you wouldn't trade if your 11-year-old nephew offered up Ty Cobb, Hank Aaron and $745,000,000 on his favorite baseball sim.

There are always multiple posts in these threads that at least parenthetically note that they'd totally trade anyone on the roster for the latter.  Nobody should be untouchable if the deal is Cobb, Aaron and $745M.

[weams]

5 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm sure some guys threw hard.

I'm sure most of them didn't throw near as hard or have near the offspeed pitches that they do today.

I really don't know. Pitching was definitely better during Mays career. Especially pre 1970.  Much better pitchers. Not nearly as diluted. High Mound was a killer. 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, weams said:

I really don't know. Pitching was definitely better during Mays career. Especially pre 1970.  Much better pitchers. Not nearly as diluted. High Mound was a killer. 

I'm a firm believer that the overall level of play in all sports increases over time.

[weams]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm a firm believer that the overall level of play in all sports increases over time.

I do too. But I saw some fine pitching. Not nearly the beasts that hit today. Frank would not have appeared all that special in today's offenses. Heck they don't even care about Triple Crowns anymore. 

[DrungoHazewood]

8 minutes ago, weams said:

Yeah. I did not know how hard they did throw. Every fan fiction in the stands did not have a "gun." Feller was fast.  McDowell was sudden. Gibson threw real hard. Real hard. Some say that Satchel Paige threw 85. In his sixties. Steve Dalkowski and Nolan Ryan may have thrown harder than anyone. 

I truly believe that if Walter Johnson threw in the high-90s with his low-sidearm delivery he probably had alien DNA.  And that the stories of Dalkowski throwing 110 or 115 are less likely than as the Dan Brouthers homer that cleared the fence, rolled down a hill into a wagon, ended up in Baltimore harbor on a ship and didn't actually stop until it reached Shanghai.

And I'm very sure that when I was a kid it was repeated to me many times that a Major League fastball was somewhere between 85 and 88 mph.  And by the time I was a kid most of the people on your list had been retired for quite a long time.  By the end of his career I'm not sure Scott McGregor could break 80.  And since they've been keeping track with real equipment just the last decade or so the average fastball has gone up about 2 mph. 

There may have been an occasional pitcher who'd sometimes throw in the high 90s in the past.  Maybe even hit 100 once in a while.  Today every bullpen has four guys who can approach 100 and nobody sits in the 80s who doesn't live on knucklers or submarine pitches.

[weams]

1 minute ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I truly believe that if Walter Johnson threw in the high-90s with his low-sidearm delivery he probably had alien DNA.  And that the stories of Dalkowski throwing 110 or 115 are less likely than as the Dan Brouthers homer that cleared the fence, rolled down a hill into a wagon, ended up in Baltimore harbor on a ship and didn't actually stop until it reached Shanghai.

And I'm very sure that when I was a kid it was repeated to me many times that a Major League fastball was somewhere between 85 and 88 mph.  And by the time I was a kid most of the people on your list had been retired for quite a long time.  By the end of his career I'm not sure Scott McGregor could break 80.  And since they've been keeping track with real equipment just the last decade or so the average fastball has gone up about 2 mph. 

There may have been an occasional pitcher who'd sometimes throw in the high 90s in the past.  Maybe even hit 100 once in a while.  Today every bullpen has four guys who can approach 100 and nobody sits in the 80s who doesn't live on knucklers or submarine pitches.

Ryan. Gibson. 

[DrungoHazewood]

7 minutes ago, weams said:

I really don't know. Pitching was definitely better during Mays career. Especially pre 1970.  Much better pitchers. Not nearly as diluted. High Mound was a killer. 

You forgot the smiley.  I hope you forgot the smiley. 

To me diluted is every starter trying to eek out nine innings, going through the order three, four+ times, pacing themselves by throwing at 80% effort, and four-man bullpens that included a 5th or 6th starter for use only when today's guy got knocked out in the 2nd.  Willie Mays never had a single game in his life where they pulled the 96-mph throwing starter after 4.1 innings, and followed him up with five other guys each throwing an inning as hard as Nolan Ryan.

[DrungoHazewood]

4 minutes ago, weams said:

Ryan. Gibson. 

One for the 60s, one for the 70s.  For 2019 that list is six pages.

[weams]

Just now, DrungoHazewood said:

One for the 60s, one for the 70s.  For 2019 that list is six pages.

HOFs. Not so many that throw that hard. They are all steroid guys. 

[weams]

1 minute ago, DrungoHazewood said:

  For 2019 that list is six pages.

Put them up 8 inches and the hitters would not hit like Mike Trout. 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, weams said:

Put them up 8 inches and the hitters would not hit like Mike Trout. 

Only one them hits like him as it is.

[weams]

2 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I truly believe that if Walter Johnson threw in the high-90s with his low-sidearm delivery he probably had alien DNA.  And that the stories of Dalkowski throwing 110 or 115 are less likely than as the Dan Brouthers homer that cleared the fence, rolled down a hill into a wagon, ended up in Baltimore harbor on a ship and didn't actually stop until it reached Shanghai.

And I'm very sure that when I was a kid it was repeated to me many times that a Major League fastball was somewhere between 85 and 88 mph.  And by the time I was a kid most of the people on your list had been retired for quite a long time.  By the end of his career I'm not sure Scott McGregor could break 80.  And since they've been keeping track with real equipment just the last decade or so the average fastball has gone up about 2 mph. 

There may have been an occasional pitcher who'd sometimes throw in the high 90s in the past.  Maybe even hit 100 once in a while.  Today every bullpen has four guys who can approach 100 and nobody sits in the 80s who doesn't live on knucklers or submarine pitches.

 

3 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

You forgot the smiley.  I hope you forgot the smiley. 

To me diluted is every starter trying to eek out nine innings, going through the order three, four+ times, pacing themselves by throwing at 80% effort, and four-man bullpens that included a 5th or 6th starter for use only when today's guy got knocked out in the 2nd.  Willie Mays never had a single game in his life where they pulled the 96-mph throwing starter after 4.1 innings, and followed him up with five other guys each throwing an inning as hard as Nolan Ryan.

Not really. The offenses were depressed.  And Certainly homers for the most part.