Why would a team with the resources to build a core through FA not do so?

[Mackus]

I disagree look at waht Tejada (our last big free agent) did for us a solid middle of the order bat at a premium position, he .300 and knocked in a ton of RBIs and he got us patton, sarfate, scott, moore and costanza

You supplement your core through FA. That can mean signing a few middle-tier guys to fill a few holes, or if you have just one big hole and the right guy is there, signing a top notch stud to really put you over the top.

Unless you have revenues like the Yankees, there is no possible way to "build" a team through free agency. You just can't do it. You can add to your core, and sometimes even add some really serious impact pieces, but you still have to have a homegrown core which you are generally getting production from for far less than market values.

[FutureOwner]

You supplement your core through FA. That can mean signing a few middle-tier guys to fill a few holes, or if you have just one big hole and the right guy is there, signing a top notch stud to really put you over the top.

Unless you have revenues like the Yankees, there is no possible way to "build" a team through free agency. You just can't do it. You can add to your core, and sometimes even add some really serious impact pieces, but you still have to have a homegrown core which you are generally getting production from for far less than market values.

Yes, but we have that core in place with Markakis, Jones, Roberts, Scott and Weiters.

I think you should sign a FA who fills a need if he is the best player that will be available at that position while you are trying to build your current team. Do the same for other positions you have a need with in subsequent years, but make sure you are adding a top player or two each offseason.

As your talent develops, youll win a lot more games year in and year out, instead of waiting around for something that may never happen, losing your fan base, wasting your RSN as a resource and never making an impact.

[Frobby]

The Red Sox model is the model the Orioles need to follow in the AL East. NESN wasn't huge before the Red Sox starting making playoff appearances and it was Manny Ramirez and Pedro Martinez that put the Red Sox on the map for this extended run orginally.

The Red Sox were in the playoffs 2 years in a row before they acquired Manny Ramirez. They were coming off a 78-84 season when they acquired Martinez, but they had back-to-back winning seasons (including a division champion) before that. They were already a very good team where an additional piece could put them over the top. The Orioles are not in that mode.

[FutureOwner]

The Red Sox were in the playoffs 2 years in a row before they acquired Manny Ramirez. They were coming off a 78-84 season when they acquired Martinez, but they had back-to-back winning seasons (including a division champion) before that. They were already a very good team where an additional piece could put them over the top. The Orioles are not in that mode.

And look at their current team. It has been built over a number of years through trades and FA, and supplemented by their system.

If we wait around for out prospects to develop to be good before adding top players we will never get around to adding those top players.

This team has what, $25M committed after 2009?

Do you think they are going to spend $50M NEXT offseason?

There are good players available both this year and next. Between the two offseasons we could add 4 very good players as FA, extend Roberts and Markakis, and be where we should be payroll-wise.

[allstar1579]

Exactly! Everyone keeps talking about how we've tried to go the FA route and failed so we shouldnt try again...I think its more evident that we've tried to draft in the top 10 for the last 10 years and have had even less success.

Everyone expects our staff to suddenly evaluate 18-21 year olds better but doesnt think those same talent evaluators can look at established players and make a good decision.

No we are talking about how there is a time to add FA, and while we are getting there, we aren't there yet. We are at the point where we should look to add key players in FA that won't be there in the next 2-3 years, we are not at the point where we add some players and win a world series.

We DO expect our team to evaluate players better, because it is an entirely different scouting department. We have picked in the top 10 exactly 7 times in the past 20 first round picks, so lets not exaggerate. And the people that look at drafting players are not the same players who look at established players, they are two different types of scouts.

Wieters, Matusz, Snyder, Rowell, Jake A., are much better than the guys being drafted when Thrift was here.

[allstar1579]

And look at their current team. It has been built over a number of years through trades and FA, and supplemented by their system.

If we wait around for out prospects to develop to be good before adding top players we will never get around to adding those top players.

This team has what, $25M committed after 2009?

Do you think they are going to spend $50M NEXT offseason?

There are good players available both this year and next. Between the two offseasons we could add 4 very good players as FA, extend Roberts and Markakis, and be where we should be payroll-wise.

First off, trades are made giving up talent as well as acquiring, so you don't look at them like FA, they are building your core through giving up talent, not free agency, which is not the way to build teams.

Yes if we wait around for our prospects to develop before adding players to them we will never compete, cause no team in history has ever used that model successfully, especially not the Rays

Lets look at how easy it is to spend $50 mil. Extend Roberts @ $9m, extend Markakis $8m, sign Tex $18m, sign Garland $9m, and sign Byrd $6m and you are at $50m.

I'm not saying to sign all 3 of those guys, I'm just showing how fast $50 mil goes in an offseason. Yes they should add a key long term player this offseason if they can, maybe a SP for the next 4 years, and then find a stop gap for one year to buy time for the kids to develop. Then the offseason after you can add one more SP, see how many of the kids are ready to contribute, and check for other holes with intent to compete that following season.

[JTrea81]

First off, trades are made giving up talent as well as acquiring, so you don't look at them like FA, they are building your core through giving up talent, not free agency, which is not the way to build teams.

Yes if we wait around for our prospects to develop before adding players to them we will never compete, cause no team in history has ever used that model successfully, especially not the Rays

Lets look at how easy it is to spend $50 mil. Extend Roberts @ $9m, extend Markakis $8m, sign Tex $18m, sign Garland $9m, and sign Byrd $6m and you are at $50m.

I'm not saying to sign all 3 of those guys, I'm just showing how fast $50 mil goes in an offseason. Yes they should add a key long term player this offseason if they can, maybe a SP for the next 4 years, and then find a stop gap for one year to buy time for the kids to develop. Then the offseason after you can add one more SP, see how many of the kids are ready to contribute, and check for other holes with intent to compete that following season.

I keep seeing the Rays as a listed as an ideal model. The Rays are a model for the Kansas City Royals not the Baltimore Orioles. The Orioles have more resources than the Rays so therefore, they don't need to go the same route. And if we did go the same route, we'd be poor for about 4-5 more years and Peter Angelos would be pocketing MASN profits and not spending them on the club because we certainly wouldn't be spending all of it in scouting and development. Is that what we really want to have happen? I'd rather see Angelos spend MASN profits by increasing the talent level of the ML team, while increasing the strength of the organization. That means you go after two big FA's and still have enough money left over to invest in scouting and development. We have the resources to do both.

The Red Sox are a perfect example of this...

[TonySoprano]

The Red Sox were in the playoffs 2 years in a row before they acquired Manny Ramirez. They were coming off a 78-84 season when they acquired Martinez, but they had back-to-back winning seasons (including a division champion) before that. They were already a very good team where an additional piece could put them over the top. The Orioles are not in that mode.

They slipped to 85-77 and no playoffs the year before Manny. I agree with you that it wasn't Manny alone. In Manny year one, they slipped further as Nomar missed much of the year. They got Nomar back and revamped several pieces of the lineup in 2002, with only Manny, Hillebrand, and Nixon returning from 2001. In addition, they replaced 3/5 of the rotation including moving Lowe from the bullpen. They ended up with 11 more wins than 2001.

[Camden_yardbird]

The Red Sox were in the playoffs 2 years in a row before they acquired Manny Ramirez. They were coming off a 78-84 season when they acquired Martinez, but they had back-to-back winning seasons (including a division champion) before that. They were already a very good team where an additional piece could put them over the top. The Orioles are not in that mode.

I agree completely, and have advocated such, but just to play devil's advocate... Don't you think you could use a reverse model. You say build a winning team with prospects, and then add elite free agents to build a perennial power. Could a team not build a winner through free agency and then make the team a serious contender by supplimenting with elite prospects.

That is what a lot of people think has to happen with Tex because the talent is not there in the next few free agent classes. I disagree with that. But what is the difference between...

Add Tex to be decent.....then add Tillman, Matusz, and Arrieta

Wait for Tillman, Matusz, and Arrieta to be decent.....then add Holliday/ Crawford or whoever

[allstar1579]

I keep seeing the Rays as a listed as an ideal model. The Rays are a model for the Kansas City Royals not the Baltimore Orioles. The Orioles have more resources than the Rays so therefore, they don't need to go the same route. And if we did go the same route, we'd be poor for about 4-5 more years and Peter Angelos would be pocketing MASN profits and not spending them on the club because we certainly wouldn't be spending all of it in scouting and development. Is that what we really want to have happen? I'd rather see Angelos spend MASN profits by increasing the talent level of the ML team, while increasing the strength of the organization. That means you go after two big FA's and still have enough money left over to invest in scouting and development. We have the resources to do both.

The Red Sox are a perfect example of this...

In all fairness, the Rays are the model for the O's because we are rebuilding, and they are the poster children for it. We have no idea the resources the Rays have because they have never been in the position to spend money wisely. Most teams believe in not throwing away money for no reason, and not competing is a good reason to save money. Wait and see what they resign players for, and if they let some walk to conserve money before you say they have no resources.

We have no idea if MASN is even making a profit, judging by the fact that they are just now launching an HD channel, and their ratings suck because most of the other local sports all have exclusive deals and they can't get them, I'd say not much if any. The Red Sox built through trades and drafting, and then added Pedro, and Manny. (Ortiz was brought in at negligible cost). Damon was traded for, Schilling was traded for, Lowe and Varitek were traded for as prospects. Trading for players is not like FA, you are giving something up.

It just makes no sense to throw money at players when you are too many players from competing. Our core is coming, and almost complete. Let the young ones develop another year or two and we are ready to go. Yes, add Tex this year, but don't try to go sign every decent player this season because you are just wasting two years of the contract.

[FutureOwner]

In all fairness, the Rays are the model for the O's because we are rebuilding, and they are the poster children for it. We have no idea the resources the Rays have because they have never been in the position to spend money wisely. Most teams believe in not throwing away money for no reason, and not competing is a good reason to save money. Wait and see what they resign players for, and if they let some walk to conserve money before you say they have no resources.

We have no idea if MASN is even making a profit, judging by the fact that they are just now launching an HD channel, and their ratings suck because most of the other local sports all have exclusive deals and they can't get them, I'd say not much if any. The Red Sox built through trades and drafting, and then added Pedro, and Manny. (Ortiz was brought in at negligible cost). Damon was traded for, Schilling was traded for, Lowe and Varitek were traded for as prospects. Trading for players is not like FA, you are giving something up.

It just makes no sense to throw money at players when you are too many players from competing. Our core is coming, and almost complete. Let the young ones develop another year or two and we are ready to go. Yes, add Tex this year, but don't try to go sign every decent player this season because you are just wasting two years of the contract.

You arent "wasting" 2 years of their contract. You are bringing in players who your fans might actually pay to see, familiarizing the team, building chemistry, and changing the culture of the franchise.

If we signed 2 pieces this year and 2 more next year to go with the guys coming up, then we can be ready to go once they get here.

[JTrea81]

It just makes no sense to throw money at players when you are too many players from competing. Our core is coming, and almost complete. Let the young ones develop another year or two and we are ready to go. Yes, add Tex this year, but don't try to go sign every decent player this season because you are just wasting two years of the contract.

That's what I am talking about. With the Rays model, Mark Teixeira is not an option. He is an acquisition that fits the Red Sox model, as he'd be our Manny. Our Pedro Martinez is actually a reverse trade that probably could be compared to the Slocumb deal the Sox made. As we traded our ace Bedard, but got a potential ace back with Tillman and a top prospect CFer in Adam Jones.

The Red Sox made some bold signings, but they also supplemented through the draft and made many shrewd/risky trades as a result of their strong farm system. That's how they were able to land Beckett, the ace of that staff.

[osfan83]

In all fairness, the Rays are the model for the O's because we are rebuilding, and they are the poster children for it. We have no idea the resources the Rays have because they have never been in the position to spend money wisely. Most teams believe in not throwing away money for no reason, and not competing is a good reason to save money. Wait and see what they resign players for, and if they let some walk to conserve money before you say they have no resources.

We have no idea if MASN is even making a profit, judging by the fact that they are just now launching an HD channel, and their ratings suck because most of the other local sports all have exclusive deals and they can't get them, I'd say not much if any. The Red Sox built through trades and drafting, and then added Pedro, and Manny. (Ortiz was brought in at negligible cost). Damon was traded for, Schilling was traded for, Lowe and Varitek were traded for as prospects. Trading for players is not like FA, you are giving something up.

It just makes no sense to throw money at players when you are too many players from competing. Our core is coming, and almost complete. Let the young ones develop another year or two and we are ready to go. Yes, add Tex this year, but don't try to go sign every decent player this season because you are just wasting two years of the contract.

If we are waiting a few years for the core, then who will be playing 2b and RF?

[FutureOwner]

That's what I am talking about. With the Rays model, Mark Teixeira is not an option. He is an acquisition that fits the Red Sox model, as he'd be our Manny. Our Pedro Martinez is actually a reverse trade that probably could be compared to the Slocumb deal the Sox made. As we traded our ace Bedard, but got a potential ace back with Tillman and a top prospect CFer in Adam Jones.

The Red Sox made some bold signings, but they also supplemented through the draft and made many shrewd/risky trades as a result of their strong farm system. That's how they were able to land Beckett, the ace of that staff.

If you recall, we had the same opportunity to trade for Beckett by taking on Lowell and his salary. What a terrible move that would have been, huh?

[FutureOwner]

If we are waiting a few years for the core, then who will be playing 2b and RF?

Dont worry, we'll draft them