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John Means 2021

Il BuonO

By Il BuonO
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Frobby Hangout Grand Counsel

Frobby

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3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

SSS isn’t really worth discussing imo.  
 

I think he needs it to be a little more consistent.  It doesn’t have to be a great pitch but it needs to be more consistent.  Means himself has talked about the inconsistency of the pitch.  

Nobody is arguing that his curve is a great pitch.   To me the question is, how good does it need to be in order for Means to be a top flight major league pitcher?   The biggest sample we have is his whole career, 254 innings at 134 ERA+.   That’s awfully good.    On the one hand, his 4.31 FIP suggests that could slip.    On the other hand, he is currently pitching the best baseball of his life.   So, maybe it gets better.   And Hyde has said many times that his curve today is much better than it was in 2019.    So even if it’s not a great pitch, it may be enough to complement the two great pitches he has.    But only time will tell.   

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vab
vab

By the way, don't know if anybody mentioned it but did that last out remind anybody of the last out in the '83 World Series?

TommyPickles
TommyPickles

Baseball Reference just updated the stats to reflect yesterday's games. Enjoy: The Case for John Means' 2021 AL Cy Young Award: WAR for pitchers- 2.3 (1st) WHIP- 0.674 (1st) ERA- 1

Can_of_corn
Can_of_corn

How could any player that Elias has traded be part of the future core?

Redskins Rick Hangout Grand Counsel

Redskins Rick

Posted
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1 hour ago, Frobby said:

Nobody is arguing that his curve is a great pitch.   To me the question is, how good does it need to be in order for Means to be a top flight major league pitcher?   The biggest sample we have is his whole career, 254 innings at 134 ERA+.   That’s awfully good.    On the one hand, his 4.31 FIP suggests that could slip.    On the other hand, he is currently pitching the best baseball of his life.   So, maybe it gets better.   And Hyde has said many times that his curve today is much better than it was in 2019.    So even if it’s not a great pitch, it may be enough to complement the two great pitches he has.    But only time will tell.   

If you can achieve a good speed diff between your heat and your off speed, and have good control, you will be an above average pitcher in the bigs.

Pretty old school foundation.

 

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Can_of_corn Hangout Grand Counsel

Can_of_corn

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1 minute ago, Redskins Rick said:

If you can achieve a good speed diff between your heat and your off speed, and have good control, you will be an above average pitcher in the bigs.

Pretty old school foundation.

 

It takes a lot more than that.  For instance velocity and movement.  I don't care how good your control is you show up with an 85 MPH fastball that doesn't move you are getting rocked.

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Redskins Rick Hangout Grand Counsel

Redskins Rick

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12 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

It takes a lot more than that.  For instance velocity and movement.  I don't care how good your control is you show up with an 85 MPH fastball that doesn't move you are getting rocked.

It does also take movement, my bad for not mentioning that.

If you can hit 15+ MPH diff between your pitches, and they are not easy to distinguish, you will have some success in the bigs.

 

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Frobby Hangout Grand Counsel

Frobby

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1 hour ago, Redskins Rick said:

If you can achieve a good speed diff between your heat and your off speed, and have good control, you will be an above average pitcher in the bigs.

Pretty old school foundation.

 

I’d say speed difference between fastball and curve isn’t usually much of an issue.   The average FB is 93.3 and curve 79.6 these days. The curve tends to be the slowest pitch in most pitchers’ arsenal.   I’d say the amount and type of break, location, and ability to throw it without tipping it are the keys to a good curve.  

Means is averaging 92.7 on FB and 77.5 on curve.   That’s fine.  The metrics at Fangraphs show his curve having a positive value in both 2020 and 2021, unlike 2019 when it was negative.    So can it be better and more consistent?   Yes.   But Means has made progress with it.
 

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Redskins Rick Hangout Grand Counsel

Redskins Rick

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2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I’d say speed difference between fastball and curve isn’t usually much of an issue.   The average FB is 93.3 and curve 79.6 these days. The curve tends to be the slowest pitch in most pitchers’ arsenal.   I’d say the amount and type of break, location, and ability to throw it without tipping it are the keys to a good curve.  

Means is averaging 92.7 on FB and 77.5 on curve.   That’s fine.  The metrics at Fangraphs show his curve having a positive value in both 2020 and 2021, unlike 2019 when it was negative.    So can it be better and more consistent?   Yes.   But Means has made progress with it.
 

93 MPH is very hittable by MLB batters.

But 14-15 MPH diff, keeps the hitter off balance, and guessing.

If he is sitting back waiting for the slower 80 MPH pitch, the 93 will blow by him like a freight train.

I like the curve a bit more than the changeup, the change in flight of the ball, can cause the hitter additional issues hitting the ball.

Major League hitters sitting back guessing a changeup and take that thing for a long ride.

 

 

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eddie83 Hangout Grand Counsel

eddie83

Posted
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Just now, Can_of_corn said:

Sure let's blame the ump.

Always someone or something to blame.

For the love of God was referring to this specific game. He was squeezed and Galvis didn’t make a play. I didn’t say he was Koufax. 
 

The team sucks. We all get it. Means is very good but not a HOF. 

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Can_of_corn Hangout Grand Counsel

Can_of_corn

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2 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

For the love of God was referring to this specific game. He was squeezed and Galvis didn’t make a play. I didn’t say he was Koufax. 
 

The team sucks. We all get it. Means is very good but not a HOF. 

When your catchers cant present the ball properly you are not going to get as many favorable calls.

He isn't being squeezed his catchers are hurting him.

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Frobby Hangout Grand Counsel

Frobby

Posted
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6 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Sure let's blame the ump.

Always someone or something to blame.

I didn’t see the whole game, but Means was not that sharp in the part I saw.   Left a lot of change ups in bad locations.

 

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