I'm already over this offseason.

[UMDTerrapins]

6 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

"Cavalry"

We do need a new nickname for the cluster of position players who are roughly around the high-A Aberdeen level. Norby, Henderson, Mayo, Cowser, Kjerstad, Westburg. I mean, other than Ironbirds. When was the last time we had six highly rated position prospects clustered together like that?

[ChosenOne21]

7 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

"Cavalry"

This team needs a Jesus miracle though

[Sports Guy]

I really don’t think people are understanding just how cheap the roster is going to be in the next several years.

For people saying these types of guys don’t move the needle, in large part you are correct.

That being said, there is value in having actual professional players that are able to, in this case, provide innings and keep you games.

Now, in theory, you would like to be able to say guys like Akin, Zimmerman, Lowther, etc…can be those players.  That would be great and the Os should be able to develop guys that can throw 140-160 innings of sub 5 ERA ball for the back of the rotation.  However, they are so far showing that they can’t do that even if they have the arms that should be able to do that.

Therefore, as things stand right now, these guys do have value.  Now, I would prefer to go the Alex Wood route.  I think he gets 2 years although that may mean we have to go 3.  I would rather not go 4 years for pitchers like this but even if they are only 1-2 WAR guys, that has value on a team that struggles to get innings out of their starters.

[forphase1]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I really don’t think people are understanding just how cheap the roster is going to be in the next several years.

For people saying these types of guys don’t move the needle, in large part you are correct.

That being said, there is value in having actual professional players that are able to, in this case, provide innings and keep you games.

Now, in theory, you would like to be able to say guys like Akin, Zimmerman, Lowther, etc…can be those players.  That would be great and the Os should be able to develop guys that can throw 140-160 innings of sub 5 ERA ball for the back of the rotation.  However, they are so far showing that they can’t do that even if they have the arms that should be able to do that.

Therefore, as things stand right now, these guys do have value.  Now, I would prefer to go the Alex Wood route.  I think he gets 2 years although that may mean we have to go 3.  I would rather not go 4 years for pitchers like this but even if they are only 1-2 WAR guys, that has value on a team that struggles to get innings out of their starters.

If we aren't going to sign guys that will still be here when we get to a competitive place, then I really don't understand signing them.  If we get them for just a 2 year deal, then it's highly unlikely they will help us make the playoffs.  Certainly not this year and next year is TBD.  I could potentially see signing a good player for 4 years or so with the thought that after this year we'd be competitive and they could be a piece in the following 3 years of playoff contention, but in the case of a 2 year stopgap type deal, I'd rather see the Akin, Zimmerman, Lowther of the franchise getting those starts to see what we do, or don't, have with them.  While I'm clearly not a fan of even the longer signings starting this year as '22 will be a poor season record wise I'm afraid, a longer signing at least makes some sense for future planning.  Otherwise I'd rather see young players get the playing time to see just what we have from some of the kids who are getting close or ones we need to decide to cut bait with.  Some of the 'kids' that weren't very good last year, this is probably the last real chance they have to prove they deserve to be MLB players for the Os.  Adding a starter doesn't prevent that entirely of course, but it is a start every week or so that the kids don't get, and it's money that I'm not sure owners/management will, or should, spend.

[Sports Guy]

40 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

If we aren't going to sign guys that will still be here when we get to a competitive place, then I really don't understand signing them.  If we get them for just a 2 year deal, then it's highly unlikely they will help us make the playoffs.  Certainly not this year and next year is TBD.  I could potentially see signing a good player for 4 years or so with the thought that after this year we'd be competitive and they could be a piece in the following 3 years of playoff contention, but in the case of a 2 year stopgap type deal, I'd rather see the Akin, Zimmerman, Lowther of the franchise getting those starts to see what we do, or don't, have with them.  While I'm clearly not a fan of even the longer signings starting this year as '22 will be a poor season record wise I'm afraid, a longer signing at least makes some sense for future planning.  Otherwise I'd rather see young players get the playing time to see just what we have from some of the kids who are getting close or ones we need to decide to cut bait with.  Some of the 'kids' that weren't very good last year, this is probably the last real chance they have to prove they deserve to be MLB players for the Os.  Adding a starter doesn't prevent that entirely of course, but it is a start every week or so that the kids don't get, and it's money that I'm not sure owners/management will, or should, spend.

We gave those kids a chance in 2021 and they sucked.  I’m Not saying that none of them can turn it around but I am saying that this team needs a real ML starting pitcher.  We have 1 of them.  GRod, whenever comes up, should be another.  We don’t have any others.  

You can say that doesn’t matter but most fans don’t want to watch 4 games a week that are basically done by the 4th inning.  This team has got to start putting a competitive product on the field.  The idea that people are essentially saying they are ok with another sub 60 win team is disgusting to me.  Signing one or 2 real ML starters isn’t going to stop guys from getting their chance.

So yes, there is value and spending money now has no bearing on doing anything else, either now or the long term. 

[vab]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

We gave those kids a chance in 2021 and they sucked.  I’m Not saying that none of them can turn it around but I am saying that this team needs a real ML starting pitcher.  We have 1 of them.  GRod, whenever comes up, should be another.  We don’t have any others.  

You can say that doesn’t matter but most fans don’t want to watch 4 games a week that are basically done by the 4th inning.  This team has got to start putting a competitive product on the field.  The idea that people are essentially saying they are ok with another sub 60 win team is disgusting to me.  Signing one or 2 real ML starters isn’t going to stop guys from getting their chance.

So yes, there is value and spending money now has no bearing on doing anything else, either now or the long term. 

Clearly they aren't doing anything based on what most fans want nor should they. Elias came in with a plan and there's no reason not to see it through. 

[forphase1]

7 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

We gave those kids a chance in 2021 and they sucked.  I’m Not saying that none of them can turn it around but I am saying that this team needs a real ML starting pitcher.  We have 1 of them.  GRod, whenever comes up, should be another.  We don’t have any others.  

You can say that doesn’t matter but most fans don’t want to watch 4 games a week that are basically done by the 4th inning.  This team has got to start putting a competitive product on the field.  The idea that people are essentially saying they are ok with another sub 60 win team is disgusting to me.  Signing one or 2 real ML starters isn’t going to stop guys from getting their chance.

So yes, there is value and spending money now has no bearing on doing anything else, either now or the long term. 

Yes we gave them a chance.  And they need another one.  We have to figure out what we have with them, and we should only have 3 spots in the rotation, with Grayson and Means having 2 of them.

I don't disagree that fans are tired of the poor product.  But I think you are fooling yourself if you think adding an Alex Wood really changes that perspective of the fans or suddenly starts watching due to him.  But if we sign 2 real ML starters, that means that 4/5th of our rotation is full, baring injury of course.  That's not enough MLB starts left to really determine what we've got with the remaining kids outside of GRod.  It's sink or swim time, and they should have a short leash, but they still need that chance.

No, I don't see value in signing short term deals in this case, and neither you nor I have any idea on if spending money now impacts spending money in the future.  We can claim to KNOW, but facts are neither of us does.  I know you and some others think they are flush with cash and can just frivolously spend until your little hearts are content, but I'm not sure that's reality.  Now we aren't broke and can certainly afford a much higher payroll when the time is right.  But no is likely not the right time, and the money would be viewed as wasted...which few businesses think is a wise idea.  

[Sports Guy]

8 minutes ago, vab said:

Clearly they aren't doing anything based on what most fans want nor should they. Elias came in with a plan and there's no reason not to see it through. 

And where is anyone saying not to see the plan through?

Making the team more competitive 4 years in isn’t deviating from the plan.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

Yes we gave them a chance.  And they need another one.  We have to figure out what we have with them, and we should only have 3 spots in the rotation, with Grayson and Means having 2 of them.

I don't disagree that fans are tired of the poor product.  But I think you are fooling yourself if you think adding an Alex Wood really changes that perspective of the fans or suddenly starts watching due to him.  But if we sign 2 real ML starters, that means that 4/5th of our rotation is full, baring injury of course.  That's not enough MLB starts left to really determine what we've got with the remaining kids outside of GRod.  It's sink or swim time, and they should have a short leash, but they still need that chance.

No, I don't see value in signing short term deals in this case, and neither you nor I have any idea on if spending money now impacts spending money in the future.  We can claim to KNOW, but facts are neither of us does.  I know you and some others think they are flush with cash and can just frivolously spend until your little hearts are content, but I'm not sure that's reality.  Now we aren't broke and can certainly afford a much higher payroll when the time is right.  But no is likely not the right time, and the money would be viewed as wasted...which few businesses think is a wise idea.  

 

So, to be clear..you think this team is only able to afford a payroll of 60 million or less and you think assuming they can do more than that is wrong?

 

[Sports Guy]

And btw, I don’t think anyone is saying to just add 1 or 2 starters and that’s it.

You add a few real starters to this team, upgrade the left side of the IF and add a good BP arm And then you start to have the makings of a much more competitive team. 

[forphase1]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

 

So, to be clear..you think this team is only able to afford a payroll of 60 million or less and you think assuming they can do more than that is wrong?

 

*sigh*  I clearly said they can afford a much higher payroll when the time is right.  Just not seeing the timing being right this year.  I'm not sure spending 10, 20 or whatever more millions on 1-2 year deals to make this team suck a little less is a smart way to spend money and is more likely just wasteful spending.  Now it's not MY money, but if it was I certainly wouldn't spend it yet.  While I'm not sure even a long term contract is wise this year, I'd be more willing to sign a 4-5 year deal with the right guy, someone that could be a piece of when we are contending for a WC spot or something. 

[Sports Guy]

7 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

*sigh*  I clearly said they can afford a much higher payroll when the time is right.  Just not seeing the timing being right this year.  I'm not sure spending 10, 20 or whatever more millions on 1-2 year deals to make this team suck a little less is a smart way to spend money and is more likely just wasteful spending.  Now it's not MY money, but if it was I certainly wouldn't spend it yet.  While I'm not sure even a long term contract is wise this year, I'd be more willing to sign a 4-5 year deal with the right guy, someone that could be a piece of when we are contending for a WC spot or something. 

Ok, so being a competitive team in 2022 isn’t important to you.  The Orioles  love fans like you.  You are buying into this.

But most fans aren’t like that, which is good.

[forphase1]

Sure, in a perfect world we'd already be competitive.  2020 wouldn't have happened and some of the young guys we tried out last year would have proven themselves to be quality MLB players, and we'd have a shot to challenge for the playoffs this year with adding the right pieces.  But that didn't happen.  Let's see what we DO have.

1 starting pitcher.  DH/1st base is covered.  As is 2 out of 3 outfield spots, pending Hays health of course.  A decent BP arm or two, but most were too inconsistent to really rely upon.  Every other position/roster spot is filled, or will be filled, with unproven players and/or rookies at this point.  That's it.  That's the team you feel is worth putting money into trying to make it a competitive team?  Unless the Orioles are willing to spend serious money this offseason (50+ million more on payroll this year) they aren't going to be able to do enough to really make us competitive.  At best they make a terrible team into just a bad team, and is that really worth adding 15-25 million to the payroll?  I just don't see it.  

Yes, fans aren't happy.  I get it.  But fans don't often think logically or are willing to see the long term picture.  This rebuild sucks and is going on WAY too long.  But that doesn't mean you start spending money foolishly just to make fans happy.  

[Sports Guy]

11 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

Sure, in a perfect world we'd already be competitive.  2020 wouldn't have happened and some of the young guys we tried out last year would have proven themselves to be quality MLB players, and we'd have a shot to challenge for the playoffs this year with adding the right pieces.  But that didn't happen.  Let's see what we DO have.

1 starting pitcher.  DH/1st base is covered.  As is 2 out of 3 outfield spots, pending Hays health of course.  A decent BP arm or two, but most were too inconsistent to really rely upon.  Every other position/roster spot is filled, or will be filled, with unproven players and/or rookies at this point.  That's it.  That's the team you feel is worth putting money into trying to make it a competitive team?  Unless the Orioles are willing to spend serious money this offseason (50+ million more on payroll this year) they aren't going to be able to do enough to really make us competitive.  At best they make a terrible team into just a bad team, and is that really worth adding 15-25 million to the payroll?  I just don't see it.  

Yes, fans aren't happy.  I get it.  But fans don't often think logically or are willing to see the long term picture.  This rebuild sucks and is going on WAY too long.  But that doesn't mean you start spending money foolishly just to make fans happy.  

If you think spending money is just for the fans, you aren’t listening ir being realistic about things.

[forphase1]

26 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

If you think spending money is just for the fans, you aren’t listening ir being realistic about things.

If you think management or ownership is going to spend real money to make this bad team a little bit better, you aren't being realistic about things either.