DL Hall 2022

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Is that how you feel about every game, same situation, or just yesterday's game?

Best chance to win would have been using Bautista in the 9th.   How far do you want to take that strategy?

Every game is different.  Situations are different.  DHer, knowing you were without arguably your best starter and that it needed to be a BP game?  Knowing you are going to need length from a guy who has been terrible for most of the season?  That wasn’t likely a game that you were going to need your best relievers imo.

Yea, I’m going Tate, Perez or JBat there and trying to give myself the best chance to win that game. 

I’m certainly not going Hall in that situation.

 

 

 

 

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Exactly. When Hall came in, Toronto was 84% to win. Would have been a massive roll of the dice to burn a high leverage guy on the off chance that we score. And we didn't score, so Hyde turned out to be right to use Hall even though his results were spectacularly bad. Doing so keeps the A guys available in better position to win Game 2 which we have 50% probability of winning.

Especially because Lyles was injured. If we had a lead in the 5th of game 2, we are absolutely going to need every one of the A guys to pitch an inning, maybe more. 

You can’t assume that because they didn’t score there that they wouldn’t have scored down 1.  Mentality changes.  Mindset changes.  Situations change.  Approach changes.

[RZNJ]

Everyone saying Hall doesn't belong here were pretty quiet after he looked great on Saturday.   I commented that I needed to see him do it again after that game.  He had been lights out in one Norfolk relief appearance and bad in the next.  Talent wise he belongs here.  One terrible appearance and the "I told you so" crowd is out.  

Previously, SG said if Henderson came up and sucked it was ok because he was still getting experience for next year.  Once Hall hurt us (didn't cost us the game though)  that thinking goes out the window.  

[eddie83]

The rotation has given the Orioles everything they could have hoped for. You can’t really ask anymore from this bunch. 
 

Minnesota and Tampa are behind the Orioles still in IP/S. In fact TB is last. 
 

That said days like yesterday prove the value of having an ace. Now maybe the ace wasn’t lined up yesterday but soaking up more innings helps the pen throughout the year. 

[RZNJ]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Every game is different.  Situations are different.  DHer, knowing you were without arguably your best starter and that it needed to be a BP game?  Knowing you are going to need length from a guy who has been terrible for most of the season?  That wasn’t likely a game that you were going to need your best relievers imo.

Yea, I’m going Tate, Perez or JBat there and trying to give myself the best chance to win that game. 

I’m certainly not going Hall in that situation.

 

 

 

 

If only we had a crystal ball we get to use after game 2 is played.

[Sports Guy]

7 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Everyone saying Hall doesn't belong here were pretty quiet after he looked great on Saturday.   I commented that I needed to see him do it again after that game.  He had been lights out in one Norfolk relief appearance and bad in the next.  Talent wise he belongs here.  One terrible appearance and the "I told you so" crowd is out.  

Previously, SG said if Henderson came up and sucked it was ok because he was still getting experience for next year.  Once Hall hurt us (didn't cost us the game though)  that thinking goes out the window.  

1). Do people have to comment after every outing?  Is that like a rule?  I said before he was brought back up that I didn’t feel he should come up.  Do I need to amend that after every outing?  Or should I just stick with what I believe and not flip flop as apparently you are advocating.

2). Henderson was done with AAA.  He proved his worth there and was ready both offensively and defensively to come up.  If he fails under that scenario, when you are playing several subpar batters anyway, so be it.

Hall has been a disaster for 6-7 weeks.  His stuff hasn’t been as good.  He could be risking injury at this point.  You are also asking him to play a different position, where warm ups are different, preparation is different, etc…

You are comparing apples to Cadillacs and thinking they are the same.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Sports Guy

[eddie83]

7 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

You can’t assume that because they didn’t score there that they wouldn’t have scored down 1.  Mentality changes.  Mindset changes.  Situations change.  Approach changes.

I agree with this but if they were playing with a lead at all in Game 2, Hall is pitching. 
 

Using Perez there you are saying you only have Bautista and Tate for Game 2 from the top 3.  
 

Hyde is not getting through yesterday without using someone like Hall. He was also facing 8-9 to start the inning. 

[RZNJ]

Hall hasn't been a disaster for 6 weeks.  He had a dominant relief outing at Norfolk after the conversion and, of course, the dominant outing on Saturday.  

The Jay's had Berrios with a 5.23 ERA going in game 2 but that's a game you conceded as a loss before it ever started so we should burn our best relievers in a longshot game 1.    Ok.

[Frobby]

I don’t have a huge problem with using Hall in that situation.  To be clear, he entered the game with the O’s down 4-2 with two outs in the 8th.   The O’s had a 16% chance of winning the game at that point, per BB-ref.    He got the out and then the O’s hit a solo HR in the bottom of the 8th to narrow Toronto’s lead to 4-3.   The odds of the O’s winning were still 16% at the end of the frame, by virtue of the fact that the O’s had used up three more outs.  Basically, that’s a medium leverage situation.   The game wasn’t hopeless but the odds were solidly against us.   Needless to say, the odds were hopeless by the time Hall was pulled.   That’s the way it goes.  

To me, the key at bat was Espinal’s 11-pitch walk.   He spoiled a bunch of good pitches in that at bat.  Then Springer hit a pretty good change-up for a single and it was downhill from there.   

[Just Regular]

The bullpen usage in general today tomorrow should be interesting going to Thursday's off day.

I kind of want to say that regardless of the score, you need to compete with Perez-Tate-Bautista both days even if that means unusually early entries.     This series is as good a simulation of future Octobers as you'll get for the moment.   Pretend you are down 0-1 in a first round 3-game series....you can't let yourself lose without getting your best pitchers in.

I hope the coaches are asking the A relievers to visualize unusually early calls tonight, if Bradish isn't on top form.    If the Blue Jays get more than their 3rd or so run tonight off anyone but our top arms, I'll be disappointed.    You can probably ask Bradish to empty the tank in 70-80 pitches too.

[Ceciltrav]

21 minutes ago, eddie83 said:

The rotation has given the Orioles everything they could have hoped for. You can’t really ask anymore from this bunch. 
 

Minnesota and Tampa are behind the Orioles still in IP/S. In fact TB is last. 
 

That said days like yesterday prove the value of having an ace. Now maybe the ace wasn’t lined up yesterday but soaking up more innings helps the pen throughout the year. 

I couldn't agree more.  I am happy with what our rotation has given us this year but please if your spending money go all out and bring in an ace if possible?  The Jays having Gausman and Manoah in this series is nice.  BY the way, we got nothing in the Gausman deal did we?  Why in the world did they just deal him like they did?  That was not smart.  We traded Gausman and Manny and literally got nothing in return but Kremer.  

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Ceciltrav said:

I couldn't agree more.  I am happy with what our rotation has given us this year but please if your spending money go all out and bring in an ace if possible?  The Jays having Gausman and Manoah in this series is nice.  BY the way, we got nothing in the Gausman deal did we?  Why in the world did they just deal him like they did?  That was not smart.  We traded Gausman and Manny and literally got nothing in return but Kremer.  

They bundled the O'Day contract with Gausman.

 

[OriolesMagic83]

6 minutes ago, Ceciltrav said:

I couldn't agree more.  I am happy with what our rotation has given us this year but please if your spending money go all out and bring in an ace if possible?  The Jays having Gausman and Manoah in this series is nice.  BY the way, we got nothing in the Gausman deal did we?  Why in the world did they just deal him like they did?  That was not smart.  We traded Gausman and Manny and literally got nothing in return but Kremer.  

That's what happens when you have an organization that keeps mortgaging tomorrow for today.  You give away assets for minimal returns and drain your farm dry.  In 2018, the bill came due and we all know the results.

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

The team was behind late.

It wasn't a high leverage situation.

How happy would you have been if they had burned Tate in game one and then had to go to Hall with a one run lead in game two only to watch him blow up?

Would that have been better?

 

I was saying it was a HL as well, but looking at this table starting an inning with no one on and down by a run comes up with leverage index of .7 with anything below .85 considered a low leverage situation. So I was wrong in the context of leverage.

Saying that, I still think he should have stuck with Baker through the 8th and then gone to Tate for the 9th to hole them at one. Hall has shown no ability to link good games back to back in a relief role even in the minors. He's pitched to an 8.66 ERA in his last eight AAA games allowing 21 hits and 13 BBs over those 17.2 AAA innings before he was promoted to Baltimore.

He has not been commanding anything consistently and he has not shown he can warm up effectively in a relief role. He has no reason to be in a one run game in the 9th, even in a double header.

Now add in that Hyde knew Lyles was out for the 2nd game, and I think you gotta try and keep that game a one run game with one of your better relievers not named Bautista. 

At the end of the day, Hall command has not been there on any consistent basis since mid-July. He very well may have hit a wall since he hadn't thrown that many innings in the last three years due to COVID and the injury last year. 

Hall has the stuff but he's been pitching way too much in the middle of the plate and his stuff is not that good that he can get away with that too consistently. 

Looking at his statcast numbers, his slider's horizontal movement is the only thing with plus movement. I've seen plus, plus movement on his change, slider, and curveball on the past, but that's not what he's showing here.

He has all the tell tale signs of a pitcher that needs to be used sparingly and in mop up roles or shut down for the year. He still has a bright future, but I think he has major relief risk at this point in his career.

[Sports Guy]

The thing the LI doesn’t take into account as things like opponent, time of year, etc…I think that situation is high leverage enough, given the fact that you are battling with the team in front of you late in the season.

It adds to the pressure and intensity of the situation.  One of those things that you can’t measure but doesn’t mean they don’t exist.