Should Mike Mussina’s number have been retired?

[Frobby]

24 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Which we know is kind of random.  Frank had nearly twice the games and plate appearances with the Reds than the O's, won an MVP with the Reds, but gets an O's hat on his plaque in Cooperstown.  If the HOF had left his hat blank like the often do today does Frank not get a retired number or a statue?

He’d still have both.  

[DrungoHazewood]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

He’d still have both.  

I think so, too.  This so-called rule about Orioles only getting numbers retired if they have a bird on their plaque is only true because it currently happens to be.  It will be forgotten the moment it needs to be.

[Frobby]

17 minutes ago, crowmst3k! said:

Easily one of the worst things that the Orioles ever did.  

If the O's kept Murray, The 1989 squad would have probably made the playoffs.  

The O's would not have traded for Glenn Davis.  

The Orioles of the 90's would have had Pete Harnisch, Curt Schilling, and Mike Mussina heading into the '92-'97 stretch, which would have been a damn good rotation.  Having an outfield with Steve Finley alongside Brady Anderson would have been icing on the cake.  

I can definitely see one of those Orioles squads winning the World Series.  

Trading Murray was easily one of the stupidest moves, which led to a cascade of stupider moves and missed opportunities.  

I don’t agree.   Eddie was totally sour the last couple of years he was with the team — justifiably so, but he needed a change of scenery.   They were right to trade him; I just wish they’d gotten more in exchange.  

[OriolesMagic83]

Mussina's number should have been retired, but he shouldn't get a statue.  The old mantra for not retiring Mussina's number was that he wasn't in the Hall of Fame.  If the Hall of Fame put an Oriole on his plaque, the O's would come up with a new reason not to retire his number.  There was a lot of hard feelings and pettiness both ways.  Shouldn't a player get to chose his own cap, within reason?  Wade Boggs supposedly wanted to go into the Hall of Fame with a Yankee cap is out of bounds, IMO.

[btdart20]

6 hours ago, Frobby said:

I didn’t want to derail the thread on Adley’s debut, but SG posted this tweet from Buster Olney:

What’s your view of this?   Personally, Mussina was one of my favorite players ever, and I did not blame him one bit when he left the team.   I strongly supported his election to the Hall of Fame and of course the Orioles Hall of Fame.   But with all that said, I’m not offended that the O’s chose not to retire his number.   He chose to leave, in the prime of his career.   If the O’s had retired his number, that would have been OK with me, but I’m also OK with their decision not to retire it.  

As to Olney’s tweet, I wonder how many Hall of Famers voluntarily left their original team after 10+ years and while still in their prime.   
 

Don't really care either way too.  I hate the fact that he signed with the NYY of all teams...  I revel in the fact that he never won the WS and wasn't an All-Star with the Yankees!  But completely understand that it was a business decision.  

Moose is in the Adam Jones tier in my mind O's career-wise.  But Jonesy was the face of the franchise and meant more to the team during his time than Moose did.  Mike was on Cal's team.  

[Frobby]

2 minutes ago, btdart20 said:

Don't really care either way too.  I hate the fact that he signed with the NYY of all teams...  I revel in the fact that he never won the WS and wasn't an All-Star with the Yankees!  But completely understand that it was a business decision.  

Moose is in the Adam Jones tier in my mind O's career-wise.  But Jonesy was the face of the franchise and meant more to the team during his time than Moose did.  Mike was on Cal's team.  

Mike Mussina was far more valuable as an Oriole than Adam Jones.  His 47.7 rWAR from 1991-2000 also was significantly higher than Cal’s 38.8 during that period.  Obviously I’m not going to argue that he was the face of the franchise rather than Cal in those years.  But he was the more valuable player of the two during that period, and it wasn’t that close.  

[Gofannon]

15 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

Mussina's number should have been retired, but he shouldn't get a statue.  The old mantra for not retiring Mussina's number was that he wasn't in the Hall of Fame.  If the Hall of Fame put an Oriole on his plaque, the O's would come up with a new reason not to retire his number.  There was a lot of hard feelings and pettiness both ways.  Shouldn't a player get to chose his own cap, within reason?  Wade Boggs supposedly wanted to go into the Hall of Fame with a Yankee cap is out of bounds, IMO.

I may be wrong, but I don't remember a lot of pettiness from Mussina.  He re-signed with the Orioles in 1997 at what was labeled a "garden variety contract" by Tom Glavine.  In 2000, two months before he hit free agency, the Orioles traded away 6 major league players (Surhoff, Bordick, Baines, Charles Johnson, Will Clark, Mike Timlin) for next to nothing.  He was then offered less money to play for an inferior organization that would go on to have 11 consecutive losing seasons after his departure.  His other option was to make more money for a franchise that had won 3 straight World Series.  The last-minute offer increase from the O's was too little, too late, done to save face and was as convenient as this title-winning requirement to have his number retired.

I'm sorry it was the Yankees and it hurt at the time, but it made perfect sense.  

Mussina was always a bit aloof and standoffish.  I once heard Phil Wood say that he was a guy who wanted everyone to know that he was the smartest guy in the room.  He was also the best pitcher we've had in the past 40 years.  Complicated situation, but I wish people would just let his contributions to the team (including the best post-season performance I've ever seen) outweigh his decision to abandon a sinking ship.

[OriolesMagic83]

Has Mussina come to any O's functions since he left the O's?  I don't remember him being at any.  I think a lot of the O's leadership values things like showing up at O's events.  Obviously Mussina spent almost half his career at the Yankees and had more team success there.  It was Mussina;s right to leave the O's for a better contract and better team, but there are hard feelings.  Mussina probably doesn't care, but that could be taken as he has a grudge against the O's.

[Tony-OH]

I don't call him a traitor at all, because that would mean he was actually on the Orioles side. Let's face it, Mu$$ina was on team Mussina all the time. He wasn't born here in this area, he wasn't an Orioles fan growing up. 

He was drafted and deveoped by the Orioles. He pitched well and was a good pitcher for them. The first time he was going to be eligible to be a free agent he felt like the Orioles had a chance to win a World Series so he resigned to what turned out to be hometown discount.

The second time he was tired of being the number one guy and jumped at a chance to be a 3rd or 4th starter for more money. I don't blame him at all. He did what any player of fortune would do. I'm sure dealing with Mister Scrooge didn't help.

When I was kid I was fan who thought the players cared about the city and the fans. Free agency changed all of that for most players. 

I really don't care all that much about the players but the fortunes of the team, because in the end, the players are playing their best for your team when they wear that unofrom, but make no mistake about it, their allegiance starts and end with what's best for them and their families monetarily. Sure there are few examples here and there that would not fit, but in the end, if you think players care two cents about you and or the city, you have fallen for the professional sports ruse.

In the end, I root for players who play for the Orioles. Once they no longer play for the Orioles, I no longer root for them. 

At the end of the day though, if a players doesn;t go into the HoF with an Orioles hat, his number should certainly not be retired by the team. That would be embarrassing.

 

 

[UMDTerrapins]

Earl Weaver, Brooks Robinson, Frank Robinson, Eddie Murray, Cal Ripken, Jim Palmer, Jackie Robinson. 
 

I loved watching Mussina pitch. He’s a great Oriole. But those are Mt. Rushmore names. He misses the cut for me. 

[btdart20]

43 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Mike Mussina was far more valuable as an Oriole than Adam Jones.  His 47.7 rWAR from 1991-2000 also was significantly higher than Cal’s 38.8 during that period.  Obviously I’m not going to argue that he was the face of the franchise rather than Cal in those years.  But he was the more valuable player of the two during that period, and it wasn’t that close.  

Totally agreed.  Not sure there's a rule book on retiring numbers.  On field greatness is one threshold, absolutely.  But there's some type of sliding scale with intangibles too.  The numbers currently retired represent much more to Baltimore than just playing talent.  

When does Clemens' have his # retired in Boston?  Definitely different circumstance (and not HOFers per the OP), but the public mojo rhymes to some degree.

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

Has Mussina come to any O's functions since he left the O's?  I don't remember him being at any.  I think a lot of the O's leadership values things like showing up at O's events.  Obviously Mussina spent almost half his career at the Yankees and had more team success there.  It was Mussina;s right to leave the O's for a better contract and better team, but there are hard feelings.  Mussina probably doesn't care, but that could be taken as he has a grudge against the O's.

He came to his Orioles Hall of Fame induction ceremony.  I’m not sure what other events there have been where he would have been asked to attend.  I know they’re having some form of 30th anniversary ceremony for OPACY this summer and have invited some players.  That certainly seems like an event Moose should be invited to.   Hopefully, he’d accept.  

If you want to get some insight into Mussina, I highly recommend John Feinstein’s Living on the Black.   In that book, Feinstein follows Mussina and Tom Glavine for an entire season, and there’s all sorts of anecdotes and interviews from both of them.  It’s a fascinating read.   Mussina’s best friend in the Yankees organization was the bullpen catcher.   
 

[Frobby]

30 minutes ago, btdart20 said:

Totally agreed.  Not sure there's a rule book on retiring numbers.  On field greatness is one threshold, absolutely.  But there's some type of sliding scale with intangibles too.  The numbers currently retired represent much more to Baltimore than just playing talent.  

When does Clemens' have his # retired in Boston?  Definitely different circumstance (and not HOFers per the OP), but the public mojo rhymes to some degree.

Different teams have different criteria.  To me, the list of retired numbers for the Yankees is laughably long.   They’ll have to start using triple digit uniform numbers soon.   The O’s have been extremely judicious, and I’m fine with that.  

[Snutchy]

No. He made his choice to go in without a team on his hat. 
 

[Frobby]

5 minutes ago, Snutchy said:

No. He made his choice to go in without a team on his hat. 
 

So why did the Reds retire Frank Robinson’s number and put a statue of him outside their stadium?   He has an Oriole on his hat on his plaque despite playing longer for the Reds?   Shouldn’t they have been insulted?