Just get better

[Fan4Life]

Their three most desireable players are probably Markakis, who I doubt you'd be willing to trade, Guthrie, who is our only reliable starting pitcher, Roberts and Sherrill, who most teams probably view as a quality LH setup man and not as a big-time closer. I don't see any team in baseball offering a quality prospect for either Scott or Huff. We're not going to get a Bedard or Tejada package for Roberts.

My biggest complaint about MacPhail, at this point, and based completely on 20-20 hind-sight, is that he misplayed the Roberts situation last off-season. Roberts seems to be drawing less attention now, which you probably pointed out was a possibility last year. IIRC, the Cardinals, Indians, White Sox and Cubs all had some level of interest in Roberts last year. Now, I'm not sure that any of them do.

We weren't going to get Sabathia, Burnett was grossly overpaid (what else is new) by the Yankees, and if we think Burnett is a health risk, Sheets is even more so. There really is nothing else on the free agent market that approaches the level of quality for those three. So, there are limits to what MacPhail will be able to do.

He could have traded for Vazquez

He could have traded for Scott Olsen

He could trade for Marquis +$$$ to offset his contract

I'm sure there are more. When we're good enough to be any kind of relevant, Guthrie's better days will be behind him. Might as well trade him now.

[OrioleFan55]

LOL...Ahh, spoken like someone who really has no idea...Thanks for validating that...I am sure your stay here will be a short one and no one will care when you are gone.

Shields, what do you want to debate?

My take is that we should have signed Tex and adjusted the offer when we knew it wasn't going to get it done. He's a cornerstone player that improves a team by about 6-7 just by himself. Now, maybe PA told AM that he could only spend xxx amount over the next 5 years or so, and AM stuck to a number with upcoming transactions in mind. Even without signing him, we can still get 80-90% of Tex's offense for 25% of the cost in Dunn. Doesn't solve defense at 1B, but it gives us middle of the order power.

Other things we need to do - crap or get off the pot with BRob. Either extend this guy as part of the future or acquire 3-4 pieces for him and soon before we get held over a barrel again. Sign Markakis long-term. But is that realistic after we low-balled him last year and we can't entice anyone to come to Baltimore? Does he really think he has a shot at winning here any time soon unless help is added? From what I've heard, he is looking forward to moving on unless a serious extension is brought to him soon, ala Longoria, and/or a big bat with long-term potential is brought in to boost the team.

I trust AM, but it's hard for all of us as fans to stay loyal when it's been 12 years and constant ownership botchery.

[Burg]

I am so tired of hearing them say we will use Minnesota and Tampa as models.

Now, overall I get their point...Develop from within...Build your team through your farm system, the draft, etc....

But, there are some problems with that in terms of the Orioles ability to accomplish these things:

1) We haven't been getting a lot of #1 picks and top top guys...Longoria, Upton, etc... Yes we have gotten Wieters and Matusz and they should be good but its not enough.

2) Our player development system is awful. We can't develop guys like these teams do.

3) Our scouting doesn't seem to be as good.

These things are going to prevent us from doing exactly what AM wants to do...We have to get talent into this organization that has been developed by other teams.

I'd much rather the 25M a year go to this than to Tex.

Make this a viable franchise again and FA's like Tex will want to come here.

[trueoriolesfan]

I'm not so sure Nick wants to extend, especially if we wait until next off season to do it. He probably wants to play for a winner, rather than wasting any more time here.

Well he is having a kid and maybe wants to settle down and not move around he did grow up in PA you never know.

[bgtimber75]

Oh sure, we've nibbled at the margins by signing Izturis and clearing space for Wieters to step in. But we haven't addressed the horrible pitching situation for 2009, and that situation seems to be deteriorating. We don't seem to have any long-term plan in place to replace Roberts, Huff and Mora in a year. We don't have a long-term answer at SS even though Izturis may be fine for his 2 years.

Half of our infield shouldn't be here after next season and absolutely no body in the minors to replace any of them. How exactly are they building this team again? They say they want homegrown CHEAP talent but there is only one position player even close to ready?

[33rdst]

I'd wager if you called Greg Zaun (backup catcher and starter until Weiters gets here) and Chriz Gomez (utility IF who can play all 4 positions and can actually hit a little) and offered each a $1,000,000 contract they would sign on the spot.

It's not as hard as AM makes it.

I'm on board with Zaun, but we won't get him for 1 million. Gomez? You're not serious right? He's thirty eight years old. There have got to be better options out there then him

[osfan83]

I personally think he will extend here. I'd put money on it. I think MacPhail would put a Chase Utley-esque contract on the table and Nick would take it. After all, Nick has 3 years left here whether he signs or not.

True, he has 3 years left, but right now there is no reason to think the O's will be any better than a 4th place team in 3 years. I'm sure he has insurance against a career ending injury. If I were him I'd take the raise I get from arbitration, and wait till next off season. See if we are any closer after 2009. If not then start pushing the team to trade me, telling them that you wont extend.

[Frobby]

I get the idea of getting a few stop gaps while we wait for our younger guys.

But why spend the money? How much different is Byrd/Redding and Henrickson to Waters and Bass?

Now, I don't want Waters and Bass in the rotation but I would prefer that to the other 2. I would prefer they took that 4-8 million(whatever the FA starters get) and sign every draft pick....Or use that money to take on a bad contract so that we can get a good prospect that maybe we can have as a starter for the next 5-10 years.

I am going to give you a criterion I consider important for any pitcher we sign: 6 IP per start.

Looper (6.03) meets that criterion. Byrd (6.00) meets that criterion. Garland (6.15) meets that criterion. Redding (5.52) and Hendrickson (5.32) do not.

Simply put, I want pressure taken off the bullpen, which has pitched way too many innings the last few years. I think our bullpen will be VERY good if we don't overwhelm it.

That's my concern about Bass, Waters, Olson and Liz. Collectively they threw 5.19 innings per start. A team that has too many starts like that is going to suffer serious bullpen attrition. If anyone knows that, it's us. Our starters were 2nd to last in IP last year, 3rd to last the year before. And we saw what that did to our pen.

So to me, spending some money on guys who will throw 6 IP per start in an investment not only in them, but the long-term future of the bullpen. I don't want half the bullpen on the DL.

[tennOsfan]

I am going to give you a criterion I consider important for any pitcher we sign: 6 IP per start.

Looper (6.03) meets that criterion. Byrd (6.00) meets that criterion. Garland (6.15) meets that criterion. Redding (5.52) and Hendrickson (5.32) do not.

Simply put, I want pressure taken off the bullpen, which has pitched way too many innings the last few years. I think our bullpen will be VERY good if we don't overwhelm it.

That's my concern about Bass, Waters, Olson and Liz. Collectively they threw 5.19 innings per start. A team that has too many starts like that is going to suffer serious bullpen attrition. If anyone knows that, it's us. Our starters were 2nd to last in IP last year, 3rd to last the year before. And we saw what that did to our pen.

So to me, spending some money on guys who will throw 6 IP per start in an investment not only in them, but the long-term future of the bullpen. I don't want half the bullpen on the DL.

I will agree with you here. I firmly believe that most of our second-half collapses can be attributed to our bullpen being wasted after months of overuse.

Byrd, Redding and their ilk may stink, but at least they don't leave in the third inning every third start.

[BIRDIEBOY]

I am so tired of hearing them say we will use Minnesota and Tampa as models.

Now, overall I get their point...Develop from within...Build your team through your farm system, the draft, etc....

But, there are some problems with that in terms of the Orioles ability to accomplish these things:

1) We haven't been getting a lot of #1 picks and top top guys...Longoria, Upton, etc... Yes we have gotten Wieters and Matusz and they should be good but its not enough.

2) Our player development system is awful. We can't develop guys like these teams do.

3) Our scouting doesn't seem to be as good.

These things are going to prevent us from doing exactly what AM wants to do...We have to get talent into this organization that has been developed by other teams.

I agree. We can't seem to develop talent like other clubs such as Boston. For years we have heard about the depth at pitching but never seem to produce. I know we have recently made changes to our minor league system since Andy took charge but we need to do a better job if AM plans on building this club from the ground up. Who are some likely targets in the amateur draft at #5?

I'll never abandon this team. Yesterday was difficult after first hearing about Mark's decision but we must move forward.

Just get better!

[Enjoy Terror]

I posted this in another thread:

Rays:

BJ Upton... 1st round

Evan Longoria... 1st round

Rocco Baldelli... 1st round (played 30 games)

Carl Crawford... 2nd round

Jason Hammel... 10th round

Andy Sonnanstine... 13th round

James Shields... 16th round

Johnny Gomes... 18th round

Shawn Riggans... 24th round

Dan Wheeler... 34th round

Others:

Carlos Pena... 1st round with Mets

Scott Kazmir... 1st round with Mets

Gabe Gross... 1st round with Blue Jays

Cliff Floyd... 1st round with Expos

Matt Garza... 1st round with Twins

Trever Miller... 1st round with Tigers

JP Howell... 1st round with Royals

Edwin Jackson... 6th round with Dodgers

Ben Zobrist... 6th round with Astros

Troy Percival... 6th round with Angels

Jason Bartlett... 13th round with Padres

Chad Bradford... 13th round with White Sox

Gary Glover... 15th round with Blue Jays

Undrafted free agents:

Dioner Navarro

Akinori Iwamura (Yakult Swallows of NPB)

Grant Balfour (signed with Twins)

Also consider

Jeff Niemann... 1st round with Rays

David Price... 1st round with Rays

Niether pitched more than 15 innings.

But just to clarify what I'm getting at, the Rays are successful because they acquire a lot more talent than they draft, and so far they have gotten really lucky with players like Shields and Wheeler. Baldelli was a nonfactor aside from 30 games... leaving Longoria, Crawford, and Upton as top Rays picks to be a factor... and two of them missed more than a month with injuries.

[Fan4Life]

So to me, spending some money on guys who will throw 6 IP per start in an investment not only in them, but the long-term future of the bullpen. I don't want half the bullpen on the DL.

The question is, how much is 2/3 of an inning worth? $6MM a year?

[Fan4Life]

Byrd, Redding and their ilk may stink, but at least they don't leave in the third inning every third start.

These guys could very well stink and then you've solved nothing and are paying for it to. Sound familiar?

[bgtimber75]

I posted this in another thread:

Rays:

BJ Upton... 1st round

Evan Longoria... 1st round

Rocco Baldelli... 1st round (played 30 games)

Carl Crawford... 2nd round

Jason Hammel... 10th round

Andy Sonnanstine... 13th round

James Shields... 16th round

Johnny Gomes... 18th round

Shawn Riggans... 24th round

Dan Wheeler... 34th round

Others:

Carlos Pena... 1st round with Mets

Scott Kazmir... 1st round with Mets

Gabe Gross... 1st round with Blue Jays

Cliff Floyd... 1st round with Expos

Matt Garza... 1st round with Twins

Trever Miller... 1st round with Tigers

JP Howell... 1st round with Royals

Edwin Jackson... 6th round with Dodgers

Ben Zobrist... 6th round with Astros

Troy Percival... 6th round with Angels

Jason Bartlett... 13th round with Padres

Chad Bradford... 13th round with White Sox

Gary Glover... 15th round with Blue Jays

Undrafted free agents:

Dioner Navarro

Akinori Iwamura (Yakult Swallows of NPB)

Grant Balfour (signed with Twins)

Also consider

Jeff Niemann... 1st round with Rays

David Price... 1st round with Rays

Niether pitched more than 15 innings.

But just to clarify what I'm getting at, the Rays are successful because they acquire a lot more talent than they draft, and so far they have gotten really lucky with players like Shields and Wheeler. Baldelli was a nonfactor aside from 30 games... leaving Longoria, Crawford, and Upton as top Rays picks to be a factor... and two of them missed more than a month with injuries.

Looking at that list we're no where close.

[BIRDIEBOY]

Well he is having a kid and maybe wants to settle down and not move around he did grow up in PA you never know.

I thought he grew up in Georgia.