Jorge Lopez traded to Twins for pitching prospects (edit)

[deward]

1 hour ago, DrinkinWithFermi said:

...in 23.1 IP 

My point was that he's no sure thing to provide any future value

[deward]

55 minutes ago, DEOriolesfan said:

I think that last sentence is unfair. At the end of the day, this roster was good enough for 4th place in the division. We can argue about how tough it is in the AL East compared to other divisions but that gets us nowhere. 

Elias is trying to build us into perennial contender. You don't do that by making short-sided moves that may get into the playoffs as the 2nd or 3rd WC team. You can't sell the farm to add a player or 2 when you are multiple players away. 

Mancini was a FA to be at the end of the season. Lopez's value was never gonna be higher. 

Sometimes the moves that make the most sense are also the toughest. 

 

I don't think it makes any sense to be picky about how they get into the playoffs. Wild card teams win the World Series sometimes. It's possible to get so focused on the future that you forget to live in the moment. 

[clutch2113]

33 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Elias has already built the foundation.  It’s there to win long term And if he keeps doing what he’s doing, he will keep building that foundation.

Now it’s time to add to it. He easily could have added to the team without destroying the future of the organization.  
 

He easily could have had Gunnar up sooner.

Maybe the team wasn’t good enough.  But late in the season, they were within 4 games and that was after a terrible few week stretch at the worst time.  If that doesn’t happen, maybe they catch TB?  Who knows.

All I know is Elias didn’t care if it happened or not and I have an issue with that.

I couldn't disagree with a statement any more than this one. 

You don't take a cake out of the oven before its time because it 'looks' ready - nor do you turn up the heat to cook it faster.

This was always a .500 team that played a few games over their heads - and there was no combination of moves to be made at the deadline that would have changed that significantly.

 

[Sports Guy]

16 minutes ago, clutch2113 said:

I couldn't disagree with a statement any more than this one. 

You don't take a cake out of the oven before its time because it 'looks' ready - nor do you turn up the heat to cook it faster.

This was always a .500 team that played a few games over their heads - and there was no combination of moves to be made at the deadline that would have changed that significantly.

 

You can disagree all you want but you’re largely wrong.

The bottom line is this team went into the last few weeks of the season a legit playoff contender.

You can decide if it was real or not and that’s fine.   But what isn’t debatable is that Elias chose the long term over winning now.  We don’t know if that’s the right decision.

You don’t play so you can tell everyone you have the best farm system in baseball.  There are no awards for that. You play to win and Elias took that away from those players.

 

[deward]

9 minutes ago, clutch2113 said:

I couldn't disagree with a statement any more than this one. 

You don't take a cake out of the oven before its time because it 'looks' ready - nor do you turn up the heat to cook it faster.

This was always a .500 team that played a few games over their heads - and there was no combination of moves to be made at the deadline that would have changed that significantly.

 

Bad analogy. A cake has a set time when it will be ready, which you know before you ever put it in the oven. Baseball teams don't work like that, at all. A baseball team is ready when it proves it by winning games. This team was winning games. Teams playing "over their heads" make playoff runs. Maybe they break down in September no matter what, but we'll never know, because this team's record clearly didn't fit into Elias' internal schedule, so he ignored it. 

[DrinkinWithFermi]

45 minutes ago, deward said:

My point was that he's no sure thing to provide any future value

Neither was the ~30 year old failed starter in the midst of a career year with a career ERA well north of 5.00 that we traded for him. The Twins found that out the hard way.

[Tony-OH]

21 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

You can disagree all you want but you’re largely wrong.

The bottom line is this team went into the last few weeks of the season a legit playoff contender.

You can decide if it was real or not and that’s fine.   But what isn’t debatable is that Elias chose the long term over winning now.  We don’t know if that’s the right decision.

You don’t play so you can tell everyone you have the best farm system in baseball.  There are no awards for that. You play to win and Elias took that away from those players.

 

I just don't get why you say stuff like this. How about, "I'm just going to have to disagree with you" vs telling somebody they are "largely wrong." 

You can't prove anyone was right or wrong, all you can do is have opinions that you disagree with on whether the Orioles did the right things or not. you have your OPINION and other people have their OPINIONS and none of you know if you were right or wrong because we have no idea how any of this would have turned out other than how it actually turned out.

Anything else is just an OPINION and while you can disagree with an opinion, you can't tell them they are wrong unless you can back your opinion with facts/stats/information that proves you are right.

[Can_of_corn]

42 minutes ago, clutch2113 said:

I couldn't disagree with a statement any more than this one. 

You don't take a cake out of the oven before its time because it 'looks' ready - nor do you turn up the heat to cook it faster.

This was always a .500 team that played a few games over their heads - and there was no combination of moves to be made at the deadline that would have changed that significantly.

 

Do you bake?  Sometimes you take the cake out of the oven early.  If it looks done you should check it.

[Sports Guy]

9 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I just don't get why you say stuff like this. How about, "I'm just going to have to disagree with you" vs telling somebody they are "largely wrong." 

You can't prove anyone was right or wrong, all you can do is have opinions that you disagree with on whether the Orioles did the right things or not. you have your OPINION and other people have their OPINIONS and none of you know if you were right or wrong because we have no idea how any of this would have turned out other than how it actually turned out.

Anything else is just an OPINION and while you can disagree with an opinion, you can't tell them they are wrong unless you can back your opinion with facts/stats/information that proves you are right.

If someone is wrong, that’s what they are.  It’s not a dirty word. If I say, in my Opinion, Adley Rutschman is a mediocre catcher, that’s a wrong opinion to make.

And he was wrong.  He said no moves could have significantly changed that.  They were absolutely, 100% a contender. That’s not an opinion. 

An opinion is that they were playing over their heads. You can debate whether or not they were a serious contender if they had made the playoffs. I never questioned that.

My only point is that Elias didn’t value winning now over the long term. That’s not really something you can disagree with.  It’s just a fact.

If you are trying to win, you call up your top prospects sooner. If you are trying to win, you don’t trade 2 of your better players. If you are trying to win and you are a team with clear holes, you help the team by adding a player(s) that make you better.

I don’t see how any of that is opinion.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Sports Guy

[Tony-OH]

20 minutes ago, deward said:

Bad analogy. A cake has a set time when it will be ready, which you know before you ever put it in the oven. Baseball teams don't work like that, at all. A baseball team is ready when it proves it by winning games. This team was winning games. Teams playing "over their heads" make playoff runs. Maybe they break down in September no matter what, but we'll never know, because this team's record clearly didn't fit into Elias' internal schedule, so he ignored it. 

I don't necessarily disagree with you on your conclusion that Elias basically let this team run it's course, but my issue is that his lineups didn't line up to that bottom line of looking towards the future this season.

The scary part for me is that he felt Aguilar and Odor were the players who should be playing instead of guys like Stowers or Vavra and giving them that experience. 

In my mind, his trades of Lopez and Mancini signaled that he was still looking into the future and not worried about 2022. I was fine with his trades as i didn't believe this team was a true contender either.

Flash forward a month and the Orioles were certainly a contender despite the moves, so what do he do to "sure up a lineup that struggled against lefties?" He signs a washed up Jesus Aguilar who had been terrible all season and particularly terrible against left-handed pitching. then he takes PAs away from Stowers who mashed AAA lefties because he happened to bat left-handed.

So yes, in one hand, he decides this team would play as is and it over achieved to the point it was a legitimate contender until about about the second week in September. Once it was, Aguilar was his answer to "help". 

He allowed Stowers to be a part-time platoon player and then when Vavra screwed up a dp opportunity he allowed him to get buried for weeks while Aguilar and Odor played and the Orioles sank. 

 

[Sports Guy]

8 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Do you bake?  Sometimes you take the cake out of the oven early.  If it looks done you should check it.

Why are you baking a cake anyway? Pies are way better.

[Tony-OH]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

If someone is wrong, that’s what they are.  If I say, in my Opinion, Adley Rutschman is a mediocre catcher, that’s a wrong opinion to make.

And he was wrong.  He said no moves could have significantly changed that.  They were absolutely, 100% a contender. That’s not an opinion. 

An opinion is that they were playing over their heads. You can debate whether or not they were a serious contender if they had made the playoffs. I never questioned that.

My only point is that Elias didn’t value winning now over the long term. That’s not really something you can disagree with.  It’s just a fact.

If you are trying to win, you call up your top prospects sooner. If you are trying to win, you don’t trade 2 of your better players. If you are trying to win and you are a team with clear holes, you help the team by adding a player(s) that make you better.

I don’t see how any of that is opinion.

Rob, as usual, you miss the point when you are called out on your disrespectful attitude towards people. 

You can prove Rutschman was not a mediocre catcher with statistics that show him ranked among other major league catchers. So that's what I mean by you can prove an opinion wrong with stats or FACTS. 

As for your argument about making moves or not, you can not prove that moves made would have improved the team and made them make the playoffs because you don't know how players will perform on new teams. 

Reading through the rest of your post, you are all over the place.

I agree with you that Elias was not focused on making this team a legitimate contender this year. In fact, I don't think anyone disagree with that. His moves at the deadline prove that. 

But you or no one else can say it's a fact that if he had brought up this player earlier or makes this trade that the team would definitely had made the playoffs because that's an opinion that can't be backed by facts. It's just an opinion.

At the end of the day, treat everyone with respect. If you can use stats or facts to prove an opinion wrong, go for it, but it has to be proven with facts and using your opinion as the reason why it's wrong is not a fact.

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Rob, as usual, you miss the point when you are called out on your disrespectful attitude towards people. 

You can prove Rutschman was not a mediocre catcher with statistics that show him ranked among other major league catchers. So that's what I mean by you can prove an opinion wrong with stats or FACTS. 

As for your argument about making moves or not, you can not prove that moves made would have improved the team and made them make the playoffs because you don't know how players will perform on new teams. 

Reading through the rest of your post, you are all over the place.

I agree with you that Elias was not focused on making this team a legitimate contender this year. In fact, I don't think anyone disagree with that. His moves at the deadline prove that. 

But you or no one else can say it's a fact that if he had brought up this player earlier or makes this trade that the team would definitely had made the playoffs because that's an opinion that can't be backed by facts. It's just an opinion.

At the end of the day, treat everyone with respect. If you can use stats or facts to prove an opinion wrong, go for it, but it has to be proven with facts and using your opinion as the reason why it's wrong is not a fact.

Well Tony, can you please point to me where I said moves made would have definitely gotten us to the playoffs?

My fact/stats are the teams record. They were easily in the playoff race until late September.  They easily could have done more to put them in better position to make the playoffs.  Elias chose not to do that. He chose the long term over winning this year. That’s not an opinion. That’s a fact and I already laid out the reasons why.  

[Tony-OH]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

Well Tony, can you please point to me where I said moves made would have definitely gotten us to the playoffs?

My fact/stats are the teams record. They were easily in the playoff race until late September.  They easily could have done more to put them in better position to make the playoffs.  Elias chose not to do that. He chose the long term over winning this year. That’s not an opinion. That’s a fact and I already laid out the reasons why.  

How many times do I need to tell you that I agree with this statement? 

Who disagreed with that statement? 

The statement that you said was largely WRONG was "This was always a .500 team that played a few games over their heads - and there was no combination of moves to be made at the deadline that would have changed that significantly."

That's an opinion that you can not prove is wrong. You can disagree, but there is no way to know what moves would have made the team actually play better. Sure, we can say bringing this guy up, or playing this guy more COULD have made the team better, but there is no way of knowing that for sure. 

That's my only point in all of this. His opinion is an opinion that no one can prove is right or wrong because we have no way of knowing how a combination of moves would have performed down the stretch as Orioles. 

I'm not even saying I agree or disagree with the statement, I'm just saying that you can't say that statement is wrong because it can not be proven wrong. You can only disagree and have another opinion. 

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

How many times do I need to tell you that I agree with this statement? 

Who disagreed with that statement? 

The statement that you said was largely WRONG was "This was always a .500 team that played a few games over their heads - and there was no combination of moves to be made at the deadline that would have changed that significantly."

That's an opinion that you can not prove is wrong. You can disagree, but there is no way to know what moves would have made the team actually play better. Sure, we can say bringing this guy up, or playing this guy more COULD have made the team better, but there is no way of knowing that for sure. 

That's my only point in all of this. His opinion is an opinion that no one can prove is right or wrong because we have no way of knowing how a combination of moves would have performed down the stretch as Orioles. 

I'm not even saying I agree or disagree with the statement, I'm just saying that you can't say that statement is wrong because it can not be proven wrong. You can only disagree and have another opinion. 

Well first of all, I said he was largely wrong, which means there is some room in there for correctness.

Secondly, he disagreed with the post I made, which wasn’t really filled with much that can be disagreed with.

And lastly, when you use a qualifier that says NO COMBINATION would significantly changed that, that’s usually wrong.  It’s like when you are answering true or false and the word always is used on the test.  99 times out of 100, if always is a word used, it’s false.  Why?  Because you can’t take into account every single scenario.

When you say NO combination would made the team significantly better, that’s just not accurate.  They could have traded for guys that would have made them significantly better.  There is no doubt about that.