2022 #7 prospect Joey Ortiz - SS

[LookinUp]

17 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I think Westburg may be as high as #4. I voted Mayo-Hall for #5/6. 

I've said before that I've heard Westburg has a ++ make-up. I bet they love him internally, but I'll wait to see Tony's write-ups before forming my own updated opinion.

He does seem like a hot and cold hitter, but he wouldn't be the first.

[Sports Guy]

He should the starting SS or second baseman on OD imo.

I think I would lean Westburg at second, Ortiz at SS and Gunnar at third. 
 

Mateo or Urias dealt.

[BRobinsonfan]

2 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Have I? I've been pretty bullish on him after his sustained heater into mid-August and after watching him once healthy. I'm more bullish on him than every guy I spoke with. Could he have been a little higher, sure, but that is more because of the guys above him than on him.

And besides, I've already stated that 4-9 for me are pretty interchangeable. 

If giving the most likely outcome as an everyday major league SS is reserved, well that I plead guilty, but I personally think I'm being bullish on him based off the guys I spoke within the industry.

 

I'm just glad we're able to debate where a quality prospect like Ortiz falls in the top 10.  In years passed I'd have been excited to have him as our #1 prospect.  It feels like a wealth of riches that there are potentially 6 better guys in the system right now. 

 

[sportsfan8703]

Ortiz, Norby, Mayo, and Kjerstad, are all the reasons I hope we don’t make a trade for a mid rotation SP. These guys are really great to have now, but there’s still potential to get better, and possibly blow up. I think we should stay the course and not trade anyone this offseason and wait till the trade deadline. Right now these guys are 2nd and 3rd pieces of a big trade, when in July they could each be a headliner. 
 

I like Ortiz but I also don’t think we trade Mateo quite yet. No shift next year. Let Ortiz develop. Mateo could add some offense. 
 

It’s crazy to think that we have Mateo, Gunnar, Westburg, Ortiz, and Holliday, all in our system at the same time. So much for having to rely on Ritchie Martin to be our SS savior. 

[RZNJ]

2 hours ago, Pickles said:

For me, the difference is future defensive value.

Ortiz is universally praised as a ML caliber SS.  Now maybe that's wrong, but those are the reports.

Westburg is a guy who might stick at 2nd.  The write up released a few weeks ago where he was lowered on somebody's list specifically called him out as a guy who had been shift-aided into playing the left side of the infield.  So SS/3b seem to be unrealistic destinations for him.  So hopefully, he can stick at 2nd, but even if he does that its significantly less valuable than a plus SS.

I think there's little doubt Westburg can be at least an average 2B, maybe above average.    There's no doubt that Ortiz has got more defensive value.  Maybe a lot more.   That's not as much a knock on Westburg as a plus for Ortiz.   As I've said, I think you can make a case for either player being ranked higher.    If Ortiz can hit .280 with 15 homers as a plus defensive SS, that would be pretty tough to beat for a power hitting 2B.   I agree.

[RZNJ]

I will be SHOCKED if Tony has Westburg ahead of Mayo.  He likes Westburg but doesn't like his streakiness.   He LOVES him some Mayo!    I have learned to understand Tony Speak.   Stick with me.   If I get this round correctly, I should be going for a clean sweep as 3-4 should be a piece of cake and 1-2 SHOULD be pretty easy as well.

I actually owe SportsGuy for getting 7-8 with Cowser at #8.    I had missed Tony giving the clue that Cowser might be lower.  Funny thing is, I got it and SG didn't!   

[Pickles]

7 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

I think there's little doubt Westburg can be at least an average 2B, maybe above average.    There's no doubt that Ortiz has got more defensive value.  Maybe a lot more.   That's not as much a knock on Westburg as a plus for Ortiz.   As I've said, I think you can make a case for either player being ranked higher.    If Ortiz can hit .280 with 15 homers as a plus defensive SS, that would be pretty tough to beat for a power hitting 2B.   I agree.

I'm not sure that is as universally accepted as you seem to think.  It will be interesting to see these guys with my own eyes and see how they stack up to their scouting reports.

[RZNJ]

7 minutes ago, Pickles said:

I'm not sure that is as universally accepted as you seem to think.  It will be interesting to see these guys with my own eyes and see how they stack up to their scouting reports.

Baseball America - " He's a plus runner with the instincts and athleticism to play shortstop in the big leagues and the arm for third base, making him an asset anywhere on the infield."

Fangraphs - " But he moves well for his size and can play an acceptable shortstop at a 45-grade clip while providing plus defense at both second and third base. "

MLB Pipeline - "Defense isn’t Westburg’s calling card given his size and average speed, but he’s a reliable defender at short and athletic enough to move around if need be."

Keith Law - "Baltimore had him split time between shortstop and third base last year, with the former probably a reach but third base a no-doubt floor for him, and his arm will play anywhere."

Seems pretty universal to me.

[wildcard]

54 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Baseball America - " He's a plus runner with the instincts and athleticism to play shortstop in the big leagues and the arm for third base, making him an asset anywhere on the infield."

Fangraphs - " But he moves well for his size and can play an acceptable shortstop at a 45-grade clip while providing plus defense at both second and third base. "

MLB Pipeline - "Defense isn’t Westburg’s calling card given his size and average speed, but he’s a reliable defender at short and athletic enough to move around if need be."

Keith Law - "Baltimore had him split time between shortstop and third base last year, with the former probably a reach but third base a no-doubt floor for him, and his arm will play anywhere."

Seems pretty universal to me.

I can believe all these statements but it does not mean the Westburg is the best fit at any position.

SS - Mateo, Ortiz and Gunnar are all better defensive  than Westburg at SS.

3B - Gunnar is the better player when offense and defense is considered.  Urias is better defensively.   Westburg said that he is not as comfortable at 3B and its his 3rd best position defensively.

2B - Ortiz and Urias are better defensively.   But Westburg will profile as a middle of the order bat.  Should be a good battle between the three of them  with Ortiz starting at AAA.

1B - Mountcastle has the edge but I think Westburg could see sometime here depending on who the O's add this off season.  Westburg has the size and glove to play 1B but not the experience.  I think he could learn it in ST.

COF - Westburg has not played here but he has the speed, glove and arm to play the COF.   Don't know if Elias agrees.

DH - He probably has the bat.   Depends on who Elias adds.   Santander  hasn't hit well at DH but he could spend time there.  

When I fill out a lineup I want Westburg in it.  I just don't know  where Elias will want  to play him.   I doesn't have a poor glove.  It just  not as good or experienced as other O's players. 

JMO

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by wildcard

[RZNJ]

7 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I can believe all these statements but it does not mean the Westburg is the best fit at any position.

SS - Mateo, Ortiz and Gunnar are all better defensive  than Westburg

3B - Gunnar is the better player when offense and defense is considered.  Urias is better defensively.   Westburg said that he is not as comfortable at 3B and its his 3rd best position defensively.

2B - Ortiz and Urias are better defensively.   But Westburg will profile as a middle of the order bat.  Should be a good battle between the three of them  with Ortiz starting at AAA.

1B - Mountcastle has the edge but I think Westburg could see sometime here depending on who the O's add this off season.  Westburg has the size and glove to play 1B but not the experience.  I think he could learn it in ST.

COF - Westburg has not played here but he has the speed, glove and arm to play the COF.   Don't know if Elias agrees.

DH - He probably has the bat.   Depends on who Elias adds.   Santander  hasn't hit well at DH but he could spend time there.  

When I fill out a lineup I want Westburg in it.  I just don't know  where Elias will want  to play him.   I doesn't have a poor glove.  It just  not as good or experienced as other O's players. 

JMO

 

I had said that I believed Westburg would be at least an average 2B and possibly a plus 2B.  Another poster questioned whether that was universally accepted.  I responded with 4 main sites that all said he should be just fine at 2B or 3B and even passable at SS.

How you took that to having me say that Westburg was the best fit at any one position is beyond me.

But for the hell of it.

SS - I agree with you

3B - I would not concede that Urias is better defensively.   The dude just won a gold glove so he probably is.  However, we haven't seen Westburg play any 3B, at least I haven't.

2B -  Again, I agree that Ortiz should be better defensively.   How can you assume Urias is a better defensive 2B than Westburg?   I don't.

1B - I have no doubt that Westburg would become a better 1B than Mountcastle if given the time, based on, reportedly, better athleticism, and his superior ability in the infield over Mountcastle at SS and 3B.

COF -  It appears that we will probably never find out what kind of outfielder Westburg is but he probably would be adequate in LF and maybe even RF.   It sounds to me like he's a good enough infielder that if he hits we'll never find out if he can play the OF.

Edited November 15, 2022 by RZNJ

[Pickles]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

Baseball America - " He's a plus runner with the instincts and athleticism to play shortstop in the big leagues and the arm for third base, making him an asset anywhere on the infield."

Fangraphs - " But he moves well for his size and can play an acceptable shortstop at a 45-grade clip while providing plus defense at both second and third base. "

MLB Pipeline - "Defense isn’t Westburg’s calling card given his size and average speed, but he’s a reliable defender at short and athletic enough to move around if need be."

Keith Law - "Baltimore had him split time between shortstop and third base last year, with the former probably a reach but third base a no-doubt floor for him, and his arm will play anywhere."

Seems pretty universal to me.

Well, again there was just the article floating around the board a few weeks ago where Westburg fell off the top 100, and his defensive concerns- specifically not being aided by the shift anymore- were prevalently cited as to why.

[wildcard]

26 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

I had said that I believed Westburg would be at least an average 2B and possibly a plus 2B.  Another poster questioned whether that was universally accepted.  I responded with 4 main sites that all said he should be just fine at 2B or 3B and even passable at SS.

How you took that to having me say that Westburg was the best fit at any one position is beyond me.

But for the hell of it.

SS - I agree with you

3B - I would not concede that Urias is better defensively.   The dude just won a gold glove so he probably is.  However, we haven't seen Westburg play any 3B, at least I haven't.

2B -  Again, I agree that Ortiz should be better defensively.   How can you assume Urias is a better defensive 2B than Westburg?   I don't.

1B - I have no doubt that Westburg would become a better 1B than Mountcastle if given the time, based on, reportedly, better athleticism, and his superior ability in the infield over Mountcastle at SS and 3B.

COF -  It appears that we will probably never find out what kind of outfielder Westburg is but he probably would be adequate in LF and maybe even RF.   It sounds to me like he's a good enough infielder that if he hits we'll never find out if he can play the OF.

I was not disagreeing with you.

[RZNJ]

6 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Well, again there was just the article floating around the board a few weeks ago where Westburg fell off the top 100, and his defensive concerns- specifically not being aided by the shift anymore- were prevalently cited as to why.

The shift talk about Westburg applied to him being a SS.   I thought we were talking about 2B.   That was Fangraphs.   If you accept that then it seems fair to accept this as well.  Fangraphs - " But he moves well for his size and can play an acceptable shortstop at a 45-grade clip while providing plus defense at both second and third base. "

Edited November 15, 2022 by RZNJ

[RZNJ]

4 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I was not disagreeing with you.

Fooled me!  lol

[Pickles]

2 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

The shift talk about Westburg applied to him being a SS.   I thought we were talking about 2B.   That was Fangraphs.   If you accept that then it seems fair to accept this as well.  Fangraphs - " But he moves well for his size and can play an acceptable shortstop at a 45-grade clip while providing plus defense at both second and third base. "

The shift is going to effect second basemen as well- perhaps even more so than SS.  We can ask Tony, but I don't think Tony sees a plus defensive second baseman and specifically mentioned today a possible move to first base.