Schoenfeld gives Os offseason a D+

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

Doubt that Elias was thinking .. wonder how I can block our prospects!!  Some people have a hard time understanding how you end up making big trades from a deep system without having to totally deplete your system.  Houston got Verlander and Coles AFTER building up their prospects. 
We shall see.. but it would not be surprising to see the “logjam” be part of Elias plan to trade from strength. 

Are you actually arguing that the Os don’t have depth right now?  Like, that’s a serious argument you are making?

[tntoriole]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Are you actually arguing that the Os don’t have depth right now?  Like, that’s a serious argument you are making?

Trades involve two parties and making the best deal possible.. what I am saying is that the stockpile has a purpose.   The trade or trades will come when and if it is right 

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

Trades involve two parties and making the best deal possible.. what I am saying is that the stockpile has a purpose.   The trade or trades will come when and if it is right 

Of course the stockpile is on purpose. Do you actually think anyone is arguing against that?

The problem is, when you have a stockpile, guys get lost in the shuffle, guys get hurt, guys lose value, etc…every offseason you see former top prospects available for nothing. Teams hold onto these guys too long because they don’t want to make the mistake that maybe their talent finally catches up.  Sometimes it does but usually it doesn’t.

Meanwhile, you have missed the chance to move guys for better talent that helps you win now.

The Os have plenty of pieces they could have moved to bring in players to help them win now. Their resources this offseason were as good as anyone but they chose to not take advantage of that.

There is no logical justification for that.

[LTO's]

7 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

The Os have plenty of pieces they could have moved to bring in players to help them win now. Their resources this offseason were as good as anyone but they chose to not take advantage of that.

There is no logical justification for that.

You don't know this though.  Unless you have sources no one else does, you don't know who was on the table and what this FO may or may not have turned down. Maybe teams aren't chomping at the bit to trade valuable big leaguers for 50-55 FV infielders or Ramon Urias. Maybe no players that would represent a massive upgrade are available at all. By all accounts the trade market has been slower than it has been in years. 

Maybe they believe there will be a wider range of options that will be available to them during the season and don't want to make a bad deal now just to make one. That upsets the reactionary fans like you but it's most likely the correct strategy. 

[DirtyBird]

23 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

The Os have plenty of pieces they could have moved to bring in players to help them win now. Their resources this offseason were as good as anyone but they chose to not take advantage of that.

Really? Who?

[Sports Guy]

22 minutes ago, LTO's said:

You don't know this though.  Unless you have sources no one else does, you don't know who was on the table and what this FO may or may not have turned down. Maybe teams aren't chomping at the bit to trade valuable big leaguers for 50-55 FV infielders or Ramon Urias. Maybe no players that would represent a massive upgrade are available at all. By all accounts the trade market has been slower than it has been in years. 

Maybe they believe there will be a wider range of options that will be available to them during the season and don't want to make a bad deal now just to make one. That upsets the reactionary fans like you but it's most likely the correct strategy. 

I do know it. Between prospects and money, the Os were loaded this offseason. That’s just common sense.

[jamalshw]

I think D+ is fair. I don't have a problem with any of the moves on their own (Frazier, maybe), but it wasn't enough. Gibson is fine. I like Irvin well enough. But...I would have preferred Irvin and, say, Bassitt, instead of Irvin and Gibson. 

I'm okay with McCann. He's a fine veteran backup, but his recent past leaves plenty to be desired offensively, though I do like his historical success against LHP--and any backup catcher is going to be flawed, that's why he's a backup. 

Givens is a solid addition to a bullpen that needed another arm or two. Frazier is fine. I know most don't like his addition and honestly, I'd prefer to see Westburg and Ortiz given the chance to battle it out for that spot (or given the chance to claim SS and 2B with Henderson at 3B). That said, it was clear Elias was going to add a LHH. I do like Frazier having the versatility to play 2B and move to OF if/when Westburg/Ortiz are ready and if/when Hays falters or an OF gets hurt. 

In all, I do think the depth on this roster is VERY strong. The problem is we were expecting a higher end addition based on comments at the start of the offseason and we didn't get that. We got depth signings. That said, we do seem to be well positioned with options should someone go down. I just wish there was one more top/middle of the order bat and one TOR starter. 

[LTO's]

7 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I do know it. Between prospects and money, the Os were loaded this offseason. That’s just common sense.

No you don't, but that's ok. Never stopped you before and never will. 

[tntoriole]

53 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Of course the stockpile is on purpose. Do you actually think anyone is arguing against that?

The problem is, when you have a stockpile, guys get lost in the shuffle, guys get hurt, guys lose value, etc…every offseason you see former top prospects available for nothing. Teams hold onto these guys too long because they don’t want to make the mistake that maybe their talent finally catches up.  Sometimes it does but usually it doesn’t.

Meanwhile, you have missed the chance to move guys for better talent that helps you win now.

The Os have plenty of pieces they could have moved to bring in players to help them win now. Their resources this offseason were as good as anyone but they chose to not take advantage of that.

There is no logical justification for that.

It sounds so easy lol … I suspect the available returns may not have been quite so easy to just plug in , but hey, opinions are good.   The reason teams are not Houston is they short circuit their process for the win now.  I trust Mike’s judgement more than you do but we will see how the results play out. 

[Sports Guy]

12 minutes ago, LTO's said:

No you don't, but that's ok. Never stopped you before and never will. 

Lol. If you don’t think the Os had the resources to do more this offseason, you are more clueless than I give you credit for.  It’s just an idiotic stance to take.

[Hallas]

1 hour ago, tntoriole said:

Trades involve two parties and making the best deal possible.. what I am saying is that the stockpile has a purpose.   The trade or trades will come when and if it is right 

When is the time right?  After a pretty big step up in 2022 this seemed like the time to make a move.  But maybe I'm crazy.

 

I think D+ is mildly harsh but not overly.  I wouldn't have been much higher than a C-.

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

It sounds so easy lol … I suspect the available returns may not have been quite so easy to just plug in , but hey, opinions are good.   The reason teams are not Houston is they short circuit their process for the win now.  I trust Mike’s judgement more than you do but we will see how the results play out. 

 Never said it was easy but the Os have the available funds to do whatever they want with and they have players to trade to bring in other players in areas of need.  This isn’t debatable.

You can debate whether they should have made certain moves and obviously we know ownership is cheap but that doesn’t mean the resources aren’t there.  It’s just whether they chose to use them.

They chose not to and by doing that, they failed this offseason to capitalize on 2022. I don’t see how any fan can rationally disagree with that.

We obviously could have done more and could be fielding a better team this season while still looking long term.

[DirtyBird]

Just now, Hallas said:

When is the time right?  After a pretty big step up in 2022 this seemed like the time to make a move.  But maybe I'm crazy.

 

I think D+ is mildly harsh but not overly.  I wouldn't have been much higher than a C-.

In the preseason, every potential trade partner is going into the season trying to win, so they value their major league assets much higher than our solid minor league players/prospects.

Why deplete the system on an overpay?

 

[Sports Guy]

Just now, DirtyBird said:

In the preseason, every potential trade partner is going into the season trying to win, so they value their major league assets much higher than our solid minor league players/prospects.

Why deplete the system on an overpay?

 

Depleting the system means that the system isn’t deep. That’s factually wrong.

You aren’t depleting the system with 1 or 2 trades unless you are dealing 10 prospects for 2 players…which wasn’t and isn’t going to happen and not anything being discussed.

[tntoriole]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

 Never said it was easy but the Os have the available funds to do whatever they want with and they have players to trade to bring in other players in areas of need.  This isn’t debatable.

You can debate whether they should have made certain moves and obviously we know ownership is cheap but that doesn’t mean the resources aren’t there.  It’s just whether they chose to use them.

They chose not to and by doing that, they failed this offseason to capitalize on 2022. I don’t see how any fan can rationally disagree with that.

We obviously could have done more and could be fielding a better team this season while still looking long term.

You don’t know what deals were considered and rejected by Mike Elias.  Just because you think deals could and should be made is a fan’s opinion, not a fact.  And  it presumes that somehow Elias chose not to do so because he doesn’t want success is something I reject. 
Clearly Mike disagrees with you.  So do I.  If the right deal is available, he will pull the trigger at any point and if not then he will continue to build resources in other ways.